You want a new photo of yourself for your personal website. What’s the best way to take new photos? Here are 3 ways for you to get beautiful photos for your website.
Hi! I’m Jennifer van Alstyne. Welcome to my blog about understanding your digital footprint in research and Higher Education. I help professors have an amazing online presence through my company The Academic Designer LLC. I empower academics to feel confident when showing up online.
A selfie is a photo that you take of yourself. You can use selfies on your personal website! The most popular way to take a selfie is with your phone camera. You can use the front camera of your phone, but you’ll take higher quality photos if you use the rear camera.
Look for a space with good lighting. You may find great natural lighting outside in the last hour before sunset. Or, if you’re an early riser (unlike me), try just before sunrise. Photographers call these periods the ‘golden hour’ because the light can be perfect.
Avoid a distracting background in your photo. When in doubt, you can take a photo against a neutral background like a wall. Then you can edit the photo to remove the background like I did for the selfie above.
Use a cleaning cloth to gently wipe the camera lens clean before you start your photo shoot.
Try holding the phone at different angles (slightly higher, slightly lower). You can also hold the phone out to your side and turn your head towards it. Don’t forget to smile.
Your phone camera may have settings to help you take a better selfie. For instance, there may be a portrait mode. Or, an option to take a wide selfie.
You can use your phone’s self-timer setting to take hands-free and full body selfies. You may want to prop up your phone using books. You could also invest in an inexpensive tripod or selfie stick.
Devices For Taking Selfies
Mobile phone
Camera
High resolution web cam
Other Tools To Help
Selfie stick
Tripod
Remote
Ring light
Books, a box, or other items to prop up your phone
Ask a friend or family member
One of the best ways to get a new photo of yourself for your website is to ask a friend or family member to help.
If you have a friend who is good at taking photos, great! You may not. That’s OK. What’s more important is that you have someone with you that you feel comfortable with.
My best tip is to ask your friend to take photos holding the phone vertically and horizontally. That gives you flexibility with what you use the photos for.
It’s possible that this photo shoot may not result in the photos you want. So don’t put too much pressure on your friend. Do encourage them to take lots of photos so you can choose the best ones. If you find photos you like in the set, ask your friend if they’d like to be credited as photographer when you share the photo online.
Hiring a professional portrait photographer is the best option. The mistake you want to avoid is asking for a headshot when booking your photo shoot.
Professional photographers have the gear, skills, and experience to take your new website photos. If you can afford a professional photo shoot, it’s your best option. You want to hire an experienced local photographer.
You may have a place to take your photos in mind. Professionals often include 1 location in your package, or shoot in their studio. Be sure to ask for their recommendations.
Photographs are the intellectual property of the photographer. You’ll need to sign a contract or licensing agreement for permission to use the photos. Help ensure you get the right license by sharing how you want to use your photos when booking your shoot. Most photographers have professional liability insurance.
You’re looking for a portrait photographer, not a headshot photographer. Be clear about how many photos you’re looking for, as your photographer may offer a ‘brand photo shoot’ or a ‘website photo package.’
Portrait photographers can ranges from $100-$400/hour in the United States. Local Facebook groups are often an effective way to find recommendations for photographers in your area.
Here are 3 ways to get new photos for your personal website
My name is Jennifer van Alstyne. I’ve been helping professors make beautiful personal websites to share their research since 2018. I’d love to help you!
While new technological advancements grace humankind every day, it is astonishing that some long-gone scientists have produced research that is very much relevant today. As new research about the universe comes to light, we see that research done years ago is being proven right. One of these brilliant scientists that have stood the test of time is the great Albert Einstein. Unbelievable as it may be, the studies and theories put forth and born from his exceptional mind are still aiding scientists of today to understand the world better.
Thus, his work holds imperative value and should be studied even today. Maybe that is why it was a great idea for Jeffrey O’Callaghan to write a book about it.
Ever since I picked up “Einstein’s Explanation of the Unexplainable,” I’ve been completely engrossed and enraptured. While I always had a great admiration for Einstein and his work, I never really understood it on a fundamental level. This book helped me do just that. I must give credit where it’s due, of course. The author does a great job of explaining theories that would otherwise go above my head.
The book is filled with the theories and works of Einstein’s life. But… they’re explained in a way that makes it easy for just about anyone to understand. That means you don’t need to be an expert in the field to grasp the concepts. You can just be curious or want to know more.
For example, let’s discuss one of the topics mentioned in the book that captured my attention. In the very first article of the book titled, “Do the Laws of Physics Break Down in a Black Hole?”, he talks about one of the most important theories that have plagued many a scientist back in the day. This, of course, is the theory of general relativity.
Black holes pose a concern because they are enormously large and incredibly remote. Our ability to see their backsides is obstructed, and the signals coming from that side are weak. This makes it challenging to explain and nearly impossible to observe the swirling, extremely hot materials pouring into them (the accretion disc).
When Einstein first explained his theory of general relativity, it was considered extremely outlandish. What is the theory? Gravitational lensing is a phenomenon that amplifies light and causes it to move along a different trajectory than it might otherwise, each of which is caused by the distortion of space and time that large objects like black holes cause.
The English astronomer Arthur Eddington and colleagues made the first recorded observations of this phenomenon during a full solar eclipse in 1919, which propelled Einstein and his untested hypothesis to notoriety. Normally, stars stay in one spot in the night sky, whereas during the eclipse, those that were behind the Sun looked to have moved because the Sun’s gravity altered the path that their light took to reach earth.
In this chapter, he also answers the question posed in the chapter title itself, but I’ll leave that for you to discover.
How do you get the news media to care about your research? Dr. Sheena Howard helps academics who want a larger media presence. She’s been featured in ABC, PBS, BBC, NPR, NBC, The L.A. Times, The New York Times, and The Washington Post.
We talk about gaining visibility for your research. And the income you can make as an authority from things like speaking engagements! We even get into how much to charge when you speak. What should a PhD charge for a 60 minute talk? The minimum is probably more than you think.
Dr. Sheena Howard is a Professor of Communication at Rider University. She won an Eisner Award for her book, Black Comics: Politics of Race and Representation. She is founder of the Power Your Research program. See full bio.
Meet Dr. Sheena Howard
Jennifer: Hello, everyone! Welcome to The Social Academic. I’m so excited for this interview today.
I’m speaking with Dr. Sheena Howard, a Professor of Communication. And she’s an expert at helping academics really find the media attention that they deserve. So, Sheena, I’m so excited that you’ve joined me today.
Would you mind introducing yourself for everyone?
Sheena: Sure, I’m happy to be here. A big fan of your work, Jennifer.
My name is Dr. Sheena Howard. I am the founder of Power Your Research, an academic branding company. I’m also a full professor and an author.
Jennifer: Not only are you an author, you’re an award-winning author. I’m so impressed with the amount of research that you’ve been able to produce and you’re also helping these people in so many different ways!
Can you tell me a little bit more about your research?
Sheena: My writing career started out as an academic. I did my dissertation on gender and race in comics like: comic books, comic strips, superheroes. That’s what my dissertation was on. Also, looking at African-American communication dynamics in Black comics.
Since then, I’ve been publishing fiction, non-fiction. I write comic books and graphic novels.
“All of my work is there to really inspire people to challenge the status quo, stand up for themselves, and to feel empowered when they are in situations where they feel like they need to sort of speak truth to power or just stand up for themselves.”
Jennifer: Oh, that’s really interesting! I recently got your book Why Wakanda Matters: What Black Panther Reveals About Psychology, Identity, and Communication. Your chapter was just fascinating to me. I hadn’t really thought about Black Panther in that kind of deep understanding of how people are communicating, how people are making decisions. I was just fascinated. I’m so excited for the new movie that’s coming out. I can’t wait to re-watch both of them now that I have your book.
Sheena: Yes.
Jennifer: One of those things that was really interesting to me is how much media attention you’ve been able to get for your comic research. I loved your appearance in Milestone Generations on HBO. I’d love to hear a little bit about how gaining media attention for your research has impacted you.
Sheena: Yeah. There’s a lot of research out there that shows that when you get media coverage and visibility it actually brings more people to your academic research articles. I know these things sound separate where academics are publishing in academic journals, and those things tend to only be read by academics.
But when you start branching out to get media coverage on NPR, BBC, all of the places you may have seen me—It actually translates into more academics citing your work, using your work. It also helps you to reach the people, the everyday people who are not in academe.
That has always been super important to me. I want to help and change the lives of people who are not in Higher Ed, who are not in the academic space. But who are actually the people that I research, and write about, and for.
Jennifer: Hmm. That’s something that so many people don’t consider, much less taking steps to even approach that.
How much should PhDs charge for a talk or speaking engagement?
Jennifer: I know one of the reasons why some women professors especially are hoping to get more media attention is because they want to speak more about their research. They want to actually bring in some money from speaking fees. I know you have amazing advice for this.
What’s your advice for women PhDs who are looking to speak more about their research?
Sheena: When you have a PhD, or even a master’s degree, being in Higher Ed for so long in that way, especially if you are a faculty member, or want to be a faculty member…It makes us forget that our work actually has value outside of Higher Ed. By the time you get a PhD, in your mind, unfortunately for a lot of us the only thing we can do is be a professor, is to be a faculty member.
In my academic branding program I’m helping people to understand that no matter what your PhD is in, you have value outside of Higher Ed. That translates into speaking engagements because a lot of academics are asked to speak for free. Or, are asked to do a 1 hour talk for $500 or $1000. And when people do that, especially women right? When women with academic credentials do speaking engagements at those low rates, it’s actually a disservice to everybody with a PhD who is interested in doing speaking engagements.
Because it happens so often, and is so prevalent. Particularly universities and institutions think that it’s okay and normal to ask someone with a PhD to do a speaking engagement for $500 and $1000.
I’m really doing the work to empower people not to accept those rates. Because we’re in our own world, in silos, we think we have to accept those rates. Particularly for women. We like to tell ourselves, “Well I need to do these free ones, and I need to do these speaking engagements for $500 because I have to build up my speaking career. But that is not true. You already have a PhD. You’ve already defended a dissertation. You are already a subject matter expert, more so than someone that doesn’t have a PhD. And people without academic credentials are charging $10,000 for 1 hour talks. And they are not even subject matter experts in the traditional educational way.
Jennifer: We’re talking about a really big difference from what many—especially academic women—are accepting for their speaking fees (an honorarium of maybe $500 to $1000) and what other people are getting paid for their speaking fees (up to $10,000). Maybe even more depending on the talk. That’s a huge range.
What do you recommend for women? What even is a speaking fee that might be acceptable for PhDs?
Sheena: “I teach people that your speaking rate is $3500 if you have a master’s degree or a PhD for a 1 hour talk. It’s $3500. And you shouldn’t be paying to travel there so that $3500 is just the speaking fee.”
Because you have to think about the hours that you’re spending preparing the 1 hour talk. And then the talking that you have to do after you come off stage.
$3500 for a 1 hour talk is not unreasonable. It might sound unreasonable to a listener who has been only doing speaking engagements for that low rate. But I can assure you that your male counterparts are charging more than $500 or $1000 for a talk.
A lot of this is psychological. Because if you just say, “Yes,” then you’re always going to be offered $500 or $1000. Sometimes it’s as simple as responding with an email saying, “I am so honored that you reached out to me. I would love to speak at your institution. But, my speaking engagement rate is $3,500.”
Jennifer: I love that! It sounds like a simple email thanking them for the invitation and setting your rate (regardless of what they offered you) is the next move. And that’s something that’s so scary for so many people.
I mostly work with academics who are not already looking for this kind of really big paid speaking engagement rate. Or, they haven’t done it before. So if I mentioned it to them, “Oh, you should get in touch with Dr. Sheena Howard if you want to do more speaking and media things. She’s an expert in that! But your minimum rate should be $3500.” I mean their minds are just blown. It’s just a totally new concept for so many people.
And many universities too. I think you’re so right when universities get the positive reinforcement that that is the fee people are willing to accept, they are more likely to offer it to you whether they have a bigger budget or not.
Sheena: Exactly.
Jennifer: So setting your own rate is how to protect yourself and ensure that you’re getting paid for the quality work that you’re doing:
Stop doing free talks for exposure by setting boundaries
Sheena: Right. This is why I say most of this is psychological, because a lot of times the academic will convince themselves that, “Well I don’t know. This High-End University asked me to speak. And I’ll be getting exposure.”
“No. You’re not going to get exposure. You’re not going to get a return on that investment. You’re literally only going to get what they’re paying you.”
Sometimes you have to tell them, “Hey, I suggest you come back to me once you have a chance to connect with other student organizations so you can put your budgets together.” I’ve had to tell people that and a lot of times, magically, all of a sudden they find the money.
But the point is, when you have boundaries right? Because setting your rate, not just changing the rate based on who’s asking you, means you have to have boundaries. When you have boundaries, the ball is in your court. Because if they come back and say, we really don’t have $3,500 in our budget. Well then now you get to decide.
I would say don’t do it. But now at least you get to decide. Because the best leverage you have is to walk away.
Jennifer: Right! Walking away is always an option.
One of the things that I love about what you share on LinkedIn and on Twitter, is that it is a decision-making process. Choosing whether to do that free talk, or not, is a decision-making process. You have a number of steps that you go through to decide whether it’s something that you’re open to, things like
Having a past connection with the organization
Being able to reach the public
Helping more people
You have things that you’re looking for, that you will get out of the talk instead of money. I think that that’s really important too. Like, it is okay to take a free talk. But you want to think about
How it’s going to help you
How it’s going to help other people
How it’s going to look like in your schedule
What’s going to work for you
I just love everything you share about it.
Sheena: That’s right. I do teach people part of your boundaries is actually having a checklist of when you will do a speaking engagement for free.
But you shouldn’t be wavering from that checklist. If your checklist has 4 things on it, right? I’ll do a free speaking engagement if it meets X, Y, Z criteria…it has to meet all those criteria for you to do it for free. If it doesn’t, you can’t do it for free. I walk people through a criteria around doing a speaking engagement for free to determine if you should be doing that or not.
Jennifer: I love how much you’re talking about setting boundaries for yourself. Was that something that was hard for you when you first started speaking? Or, did that come naturally?
Sheena: When I talk about building a brand, you’re essentially building a business. Because you’re making money off of leveraging your academic credentials. That money goes into your business pot, not your personal pot. Because you are the business and you can’t run a successful business if you don’t have boundaries. Right?
I run my coaching program. If I just change my coaching schedule based off of everybody else’s schedule, I wouldn’t have a coaching program. Right? This is my schedule. This is when I’m available for coaching calls. I’m not going outside of that. Otherwise, I wouldn’t have a business to run because it would be completely out of control.
It’s the same thing when we’re thinking about speaking engagements to be quite honest. You can’t really build your brand successfully and leverage your academic credentials successfully if you’re trying to financially protect your future. If you don’t have boundaries.
And yes, I had to learn that because I wouldn’t be where I am with my two businesses if I didn’t. You have to take the emotion out of boundaries. These are the parameters and that’s it.
Jennifer: Now not only are those the parameters but like that’s how you make it work with your lifestyle: with being a Professor, with actually having two businesses. It wouldn’t work unless you kept those boundaries.
Sheena: Oh my God. Jennifer, that is so true. I am a single mom. I am a full Professor at a university. I run two businesses.
I have to have boundaries to make all of this work. Yeah. I mean it’s just so important.
Jennifer: Now we’ve talked a little bit about speaking engagements and how having that kind of online presence and being found by the media can help get more attention to your research.
What makes up your online presence?
Sheena: One thing that’s really important is to know when your name is mentioned anywhere on the internet.
Now they have paid tools where you can monitor when you’re mentioned. I don’t use any of those paid tools. I just use Google Alerts. All different versions of my name are in Google Alerts—Sheena Howard, Dr Sheena Howard, Sheena Howard PhD, like all different versions are in Google Alerts.
This is really important because sometimes the media will quote me in things that I didn’t even know they were quoting me in. Or, I didn’t know the article was out. But I get it immediately when my name is mentioned. This is important in having a digital footprint, a digital presence. To just even know what is out there about you because you need to be intentional about your digital space.
The other thing is your personal website.
I teach people you need to own your virtual real estate. Your stuff online is real estate. You literally can make money off of it. And you need to think about your online presence as literally the equity that you’re building in your house.
When you have your website, you should own your name. So SheenaCHoward.com, I should own that URL. DrSheenaHoward.com, I should own that URL.
If you don’t own your name right now in the virtual space, in terms of buying that URL which you can do for like $15 a year on like GoDaddy or something like that. You need to go and buy all those different versions of your name. That makes up your digital footprint as well, just owning your virtual real estate.
Your website should have good SEO [Search Engine Optimization]. When someone types in like “black comics,” I want my name to come up. It will, if anybody’s listening to this they type in “black comics,” something about me is going to come up on the 1st or 2nd page of Google Search results.
But also when someone types in my name, I want my website to come up because I’m controlling my brand to some extent. This is what I want people to know about me when they type in my name. Not some random video that I did 10 years ago.
Your website is definitely something that makes up your brand. And then everything that people are saying about you, like reviews: Google reviews, all of those public places where people can leave reviews about you, your business, your work makes up your digital footprint, your online presence.
Jennifer: I love that you talk about it like real estate. I speak with so many professors that have maybe been given space on their University website to create a page, or they use a page that has been given to them by Humanities Commons, or another organization. It’s different than owning your own space, than having complete control over a website and a domain that you own.
I love what you said about comparing it to owning real estate and really investing in having control over your own name. Thank you for sharing that.
Sheena: Yeah, for sure. It’s about ownership because it’s kind of like your website is hosted by wherever it’s hosted by. And obviously you don’t own that company, but you own it more than you own your Instagram page, or your Facebook page, or your or your Twitter page. Right? You can directly be in contact with people. You can track your traffic to your website. You can send them to your mailing list.
If something happens with any of these platforms you still can be in direct communication with the people that are your fans and followers and that kind of thing.
Jennifer: I love that because you’re really talking about people who are trying to make those kind of longer term connections, inviting people to their website.
A lot of the people that I work with have never really thought about the audiences for their website before. They’re just thinking of other academics, or other researchers at that point when they first reach me. So that’s really normal if you’ve never thought about it before. That’s normal.
However, your website will reach so many more people. And it does invite more people, and media, and other researchers of course. But also the public, to explore your work. Owning that real estate is not just inviting people to your research, it’s inviting people to learn more about you as a person and see how your work can help them. I really enjoyed that comparison to real estate. That’s great.
Why you want a larger media presence for your work
Jennifer: You’ve created the Power Your Research program because you want to help academics have a larger media presence, to get real recognition for their work. Why should academics want that?
Sheena: There’s two reasons why I created Power Your Research. The 1st is because unfortunately a lot of people with PhDs are living paycheck to paycheck. Or, they’re not getting the income that they want to be getting from their universities. So you have people with PhDs who can’t even break into academe, because at this point getting a tenure track position is almost like making it to the NFL, if we’re being honest.
Then, we have people who are on tenure tracks, or who have tenure, who now all of a sudden they realize, “Oh my goodness, there is a pay ceiling to this once I get tenure, I got to go for Full.” And Full [Professor] is the highest promotion that you can get. You’re just not going to make any more money for the rest of your career because you’re a Full Professor. What a lot of people will do is they’ll go the administration route because they want to make more money, not necessarily because that’s what they want to do.
I created the Power Your Research program to empower people. To say, “Hey, look. You can make more money building your brand than any university or institution can ever pay you anyway.” If you have tenure you might as well do that because your work can leave an impact on people. You can reach more people. You can really do the things that you want your work to do.
If you’re not on a tenure track, and you’re one of these PhDs or people with master’s degrees that are not even in Higher Ed, you can leverage your academic credentials to make six figures and more.
That’s the 1st reason why I created the program: to empower people to own their academic credentials in their career.
The 2nd reason why I created Power Your Research is because with these free tools that we have out here, unfortunately, educators and academics are not the ones with the microphones reaching everybody. And they are the subject matter experts.
There are people who are very good at digital media, good at using these tools, who are not subject matter experts who have the microphone and are reaching millions of people.
I personally believe that society is better when the subject matter experts have the microphone. And have the visibility and media coverage to reach more people. Because they’ve done the academic and educational work. They should also be the ones out there on the forefront.
Those are the two reasons why I created Power Your Research for my academics and educators.
Jennifer: I love it! Oh that sounds amazing. I think there’s so many women who are listening right now that are like, “Oh, I need six figures. That sounds like the program for me.”
Can you tell people a little bit about what to expect from the program? Like who should reach out and actually book a call with you to talk about this.
Because more people should be in this program and get that expertise to actually communicate and get the money that they deserve.
Sheena: Yeah, so there are kind of two buckets of people in the program. There’s people who, have PhDs, some people have master’s degrees, who are not like working as faculty members. But they might have a small business that they just started and they’re trying to get lead generation and just trying to figure it out. Maybe they have a different full-time job, they’re trying to figure it out.
The other bucket of people are people who are on tenure track positions or who are tenured, who are the people that we just spoke about, where they’re like, “Hey, there’s a pay ceiling.” They’re feeling unfulfilled in Higher Ed. They’re looking for the next thing. They want to make more money. They’re living paycheck to paycheck, or not making the income that they want to make.
Basically anybody with academic credentials, I can teach you how to leverage those so that you can own your future, and protect your future, and build equity in your brand.
Being an academic expert in a documentary
Milestone Generations (2022) was released recently on HBO. It is a documentary that asks, “Where are the Black superheros?” exploring the history of Milestone Media hosted by Method Man.
Jennifer: You’ve done it for yourself. You really are an expert who’s been on all of the national outlets, and in documentaries, on TV shows.
What was it like being in Milestone Generations? I know you’ve been on other TV spots before, but that was the one that just came out and I watched it.
Sheena: Oh, thank you.
Yeah, that was that cool. It’s always awesome to kind of get recognition like that, in my opinion. Because I get to reach more people. I get to help more people.
It was amazing. I got to go to New York. I was on set. It was during COVID, so we had to do multiple COVID-19 tests. But it was amazing.
It was a big honor and, to be honest, I worked hard to be able to get positioning like that without spending money on a publicist. I don’t pay publicists.
I do this all on my own by just really honing in on the things that I teach academics to do around leveraging their brand. And I’m focused. I’m just focused.
Once you get the media coverage and visibility, and you’re consistent for a period of time, you don’t have to pitch yourself anymore because you already have the online presence. When someone types in “black comics” or whatever, something about me is gonna come up. And so I’ll be able to kind of get to the top of the list of experts that can talk about black comics, the comic space, that kind of thing.
Anybody can do that with their educational backgrounds. This is really what I want people to understand. Anybody can get to that place, just a period of time that you have to do a specific set of activities until you can kind of sit back and kind of enjoy the fruits of your labor.
Jennifer: You just mentioned something that I’d like to ask about. Because I think a bunch of people are maybe going to have this question.
Sheena: Yeah.
Jennifer: Can you hire a publicist? And if so, how much does it cost? You teach people how to do it themselves, but hiring a publicist probably sounds more attractive to some people. So what does that actually look like? I think it’s really expensive, right?
Sheena: Hiring a publicist sounds more attractive because people actually have a misconception about what publicists do. I actually did a live video on this the other day.
“People think they’re going to hire a publicist, the publicist is going to do all the work for them. They’re going to put their content out there, they’re going to run their social medias, they’re going to get them media spots. That is not what a publicist is there for.”
You have to provide the publicist with the content. You need to come to the publicist with something for the publicist to put out into the world. A publicist doesn’t just work with you and then call up The New York Times and be like, “Hey, I got a client.” You have to be the publicist for things.
You have to work with the publicist for at least 3-6 months before you see any results because they have to build up to getting you that media coverage and visibility. But they also have to have something to build upon.
A publicist is like $3,000-$5,000 a month.
You’re not gonna see results for a while. You’ll probably get a couple of media spots. But you will have no idea what your brand is, who you’re trying to reach, or any of that.
I want to be clear that publicists are not scams or anything like what people might be thinking. Publicists are actually really good at their job, so they have to have something to work with.
I used a publicist one time. And I might use a publicist in the future. But there’s a very specific way you should go about this so that you’re not paying $3,000 to $5,000 a month. The 1st is to build your brand on your own. Have something for the publicist to build off of. So do the work.
The second is if there’s a high-end media outlet that you want to be on…Let’s take me for example. I was on The Breakfast Club, it’s a very high-end podcast known worldwide. You see politicians go on there all the time.
I did the work on that. I got in contact with Charlamagne tha God, who is the host, on my own. I got him to follow me on Twitter. Eventually, after about 6-8 months, I got the email address of the producer. I emailed the producer on my own. Then at that point, I hired a publicist to just go into the end zone and lead the rest of the way because that was high-end.
Instead of me having to pay $3,000 to $5,000 a month, I could pay a little bit less for a shorter period of time. Because I just wanted the publicist to really do that one thing. So, that’s a different way to go about getting a publicist. Save yourself some money.
But I mean for all the places I’ve been, I have not had a publicist with me—ABC, Good Morning America, Digital BBC, NPR—that was all me working working the systems that I teach.
Jennifer: Amazing! Well for everyone who’s listening, Power Your Research, is the program that’s going to teach you how to do that. You get to work with Dr. Sheena Howard and learn how to really control your own media. And reach out to people and actually make those connections yourself.
Dr. Howard, is there anything else you’d like to discuss before we wrap up?
Sheena: I want to say since I did mention the publicist that I worked with for a little bit, shout out to Sam Mattingly, the publicist that I did work with a few years ago. She was amazing, and believed in me, and believed in my mission, and believed in my message. But I came to her with things for her to use to promote my brand. I had been promoting my brand for years before I reached out to her for that limited period of time. Shout out to her.
Hopefully your listeners found this valuable. Hopefully there are some things in there they can take and implement right now. That is my goal: to empower all of my academics and educators.
Jennifer: Well thank you so much for coming on the show, Dr. Howard. Thank you so much!
Sheena C. Howard, is a Professor of Communication. She is an award-winning author, filmmaker, and scholar. In 2014, Sheena became the first Black woman to win an Eisner Award for her first book, Black Comics: Politics of Race and Representation. She is also the author of several critically acclaimed books and comics books on a range of topics. Sheena is a writer and image activist, with a passion for telling stories, through various mediums, that encourage audiences to consider narratives that are different than their own.
In 2014, Sheena published Black Queer Identity Matrix and Critical Articulations of Race, Gender and Sexual Orientation. Sheena is the author/editor of the award-winning book, Encyclopedia of Black Comics and the cowriter of the comic book Superb, about a teenage superhero with Down Syndrome. In 2016, through her company Nerdworks, LLC, Sheena directed, produced and wrote the documentary Remixing Colorblind, which explores the ways the educational system shapes our perception of race and “others.”
This quote caught my eye in the Gainesville Sun today. It is about, Ben Sasse, the likely new president of UF, and faculty opposition: “I think many of my colleagues feel that his academic credentials are not where we would have wanted them to be.”
I’ve deleted the name of the person quoted because that quote is representative of law professors speak. They say things that mean nothing or, put differently, allow for total deniability while at the same time stirring the pot ever so gently. It’s the reason I was always an outsider in the Ivory Tower.
The statement, and that of law professors’ generally, reminds of a something John Cage said, “I have nothing to say and I am saying it.”
For example, note the speaker only “thinks” this could be the case. This leaves room to say, if asked to defend the statement, “It’s only what I thought or the impression I had. I could be wrong.”And then there is the word “many.” What is “many?” Is it 12? Could be. Is it a majority? Maybe, maybe not.
This reminds me of what I call faculty trolling. For example, say you think someone up for tenure does not deserve it but you are too much of a wuss to say it. You go office to office and say, “I have heard that some people are concerned about Joe’s (the candidate) scholarship.” Not you, of course, unless the person you are talking to says someone like “Yes, I too was wondering about this.” If that is the response, the troller has has hit pay dirt and gets a movement started without ever actually taking a position. If the answer is “I have not heard anything about that.” The troller moves on to the next office.
And could someone tell me what “where we would have wanted them to be” means. How about, “are not satisfactory” What on earth does “where we would have wanted them to be” actually say. “We would have/” Would have what? In a different universe? On Mars?
But wait. In the same passage the writer does use the word “we” which includes “I.” So it could say “I wish his credentials were better.” The problem is nearly everyone wishes everything were better. I wish my car got better mileage but what it gets is fine. I wish my dinner was better last night but it was fine. Wishing for better or wanting better is saying nothing.
So what would my quote have been of the Sun had asked me? “I can’t speak for everyone but his academic credentials make him unfit. In addition, he is obviously the product of a rigged search that was guaranteed to produce a candidate to the liking of our right wing, mean spirited Governor.”
CORRIGAN: Is there anything else you’d like to share about reading, teaching, or Reading Wide Awake that I haven’t asked you?
SHANNON: I’ll start here. Reading Wide Awake examines reading as flexible practices of personal and social agency necessary for the continuous remaking of ourselves and democracy in and across changing times and contexts. By telling stories of my reading social objects (including printed texts) in everyday life, I invite readers to awaken to the ways these ‘texts’ work for and against their interests and the promises of democracy. By analyzing my reading experiences critically, I demonstrate how to take up these practices and why they are vital to acting in and on the world. I hope I wrote with some intelligence and humor.
This short book is organized according to paraphrased questions that people asked me across the first forty of my now fifty years as an educator: Why read? What is text? How do texts work? Where is meaning? Isn’t reading out of date? Can reading like this get me in trouble? Do regular people read like this? Fifteen years prior to this book, I offered a different structure in text, lies & videotape, a book about whose stories get told in and out of school. That text began with a reading of my junior high principal enforcing “school integrity” with a ping pong ball down my pant leg and a wooden paddle on my backside. My (our) reading practices are always in-the-making, and I’m only five years away from the next installment!
CORRIGAN: In Reading Wide Awake, you seem to use the words “read” and “reading” loosely and expansively—to mean not just looking at written texts but more broadly seeing, recognizing, understanding, or thinking about the world. I’m wondering, how do you define “reading” and why use the word “reading” instead of something broader like “thinking”?
SHANNON: Originally, my choice of the term reading was purely tactical. If seeing, recognizing, understanding, thinking, assessing, and acting in and about the world through the production of social things can be separated from the term reading, then they can be excluded from school curricula. If they are inseparable moments of reading, then they remain basic skills (See Herb Kohl’s pre-TikTok Basic Skills – 1982). My route to this realization maps my development as a critically pragmatic reader with a sociological imagination. That is, the choice stemmed from reading personal experiences (my problem?) and eventually recognizing that they are actually social issues produced and maintained through the texts of powerful discourses in and out of schools (K-20).
By the early 1970s when I was a history graduate student, Americans had been lied to about the Bay of Pigs, Tet Offensive, and bombing of Cambodia; two Kennedys, Malcolm X, Salvador Allende, Fred Hampton and Martin Luther King assassinations; the “collapse” of Students for a Democratic Society and the Black Panthers; and the Angela Davis and the Chicago 7 trials. Official and mainstream representations of these events across time and media led to Richard Nixon being elected and re-elected with an agenda to win the cold war militarily and to bring law and order back to American streets. I lost faith in the path I had chosen at the end of college to become a historian of societal outsiders, which I believed would help more people to develop their “sociological imaginations” (C. Wright Mills), overcoming the “repressive tolerance of a one-dimensional society” (Herbert Marcuse), and thus, freeing their minds to rationally pursue the truth (J. S. Mill). Although certainly necessary, more historically accurate information (reconstructed history books) about the neglected in society no longer seemed adequate. Rather I thought what would be vital, but lacking, was the habitual practice of accessing, interpreting, assessing, and acting upon daily information, artifacts, and events to secure the original promises of liberal democracy. To me, that practice was the act of reading which could be extended and spread through public schooling. I joined the Teacher Corp and set my sights on the first R.
Despite the economic, racial, cultural, and religious diversity among the families of my first class of kindergarten students, the school district supplied me with the DISTAR Language and Reading program and required me to “teach reading” by following the scripts in its teacher’s manual for a specified amount of time daily. The authors of DISTAR assumed that my students had little or no prior experience with reading, phonological or syntactic command of English, or interest in learning to read or in the world around them. They argued their approach was scientifically based. Lessons consisted of small groups articulating phonemes in unison with me. When those articulations were “mastered”, I was to point to manipulated letter symbols arranged randomly on a page in the teacher’s manual and groups were to produce the corresponding sounds (pretending that English has one-to-one letter to sound correspondence). When mastered, I was to point to a symbol to elicit the assigned sound from all, and then, run my finger to another symbol to “make a syllable or blend” as students slurred the first with second phoneme. Eventually, we all graduated to words, phrases, short sentences, and sentence strings (called stories).
All materials were black print on off white newsprint with no illustrations. To ensure that parents participated in these reading instructions, students were to bring home half-sheet “student copies” of the stories to demonstrate their mastery of reading. Standardization through teacher and student fidelity to the program assumptions and scripts were presented as the keys to success in reading, in school, and in life. There were no expected discussions of the meaning of the program’s texts or the practices encouraged in or outside of the classroom. When the students finished the last DISTAR lessons, they and I began the daily lessons supplied in commercially prepared reading materials, (called basals), following more loosely scripted lessons as we worked our way through anthologies, workbooks, worksheets, and criterion reference tests across grades 1 through 6. This defined learning “to read at school.”
Because the remainder of the kindergarten curriculum was not prescribed except by name of subjects, the students and I had time to discuss their lives outside of school, their interests, habits, family traditions, ideas about how the world works, media use (TV and radio)….Later, I came to recognize these discussions as examples of what William James meant by “pluralism:” there will always be different perspectives and interpretations of any idea, event or artifact – all work in some situations and none are superior in all. We used these talks and their surroundings to read their worlds to consider how people use symbols to make meaning and get things done. While emphasizing the “why” of reading, we engaged in the “how”, attending to salient features (color, size, position) in images and things and studying phonics by recognizing and using Sylvia Ashton Warner’s Key Words techniques (Zoo), examples from Septima Clark’s and Beatrice Robinson’s Freedom Schools (“What’s a good a word? Amendment”), local store signs (Red and White), and learning to recognize everyone’s printed name (from Abby to Zimbalist) posted on their cubbies and supply boxes. To varying degrees, all participated in what Allan Luke and Peter Freebody would later call the four-resource model of reading – code cracking, meaning making, determine use and effects of genre, and social analyses – without any of us knowing these labels.
I found willing confederates among the music, art, and gym teachers to help us study how sounds, images, and bodies can be used symbolically to represent our intentions to mean. We called this “reading”, and because I lived in the neighborhood and looped with many of these students through the primary grades (K-3), I had time to demonstrate how this reading blended with their family members’ reading outside of school. By our third year together, we had convinced our building administrator that DISTAR was not appropriate for our community; unfortunately, my fellow teachers chose to replace DISTAR with a single K-6 set of commercial reading materials (with significant amounts of promised free components and staff development promised by their publishers) for reading instruction at our school. That “other stuff” that we employed daily as reading, while not necessarily harmful, was considered “beside the point”. Those practices, you see, were not essentials in an elementary school curriculum…
I finished my four-year commitment to shepherd those students and families through the primary grades and enrolled at the University of Minnesota (then famous for its reading research program) to try to understand how my colleagues’ decision could make sense. The best outcome of that move was that I read my first-day schedule incorrectly, went to the wrong office, and met Kathleen (I’m married to Kathleen). Another outcome was that I began to develop an understanding of reading at school. My first course – History of Research on Reading – assigned titles such as The Psychology and Pedagogy of Reading (Huey, 1908), Reading as Reasoning (Thorndike, 1917), Remembering (Barlett 1932), Literature as Exploration (Rosenblatt, 1933)….These texts and my peers’ discussion of them taught me that my interpretation of reading was not wrong or beside the point because reading was information processing, not ever mastered or easily transferred among situations or tasks, colored by cultural attitudes and personal habits, and involved emotions as well as reason.
Buoyed with those insights, I used the intellectual tools I brought with me to class (Marxism/critical theory) and began to develop new ones (pragmatism – old, new, American and French – Richard Bernstein) to understand my experiences with past colleagues (and continued experiences in and around reading education over 40 years). Marxism directed me toward analyses of the social relations embedded in those commercially prepared basals. Critical theory honed my attention to how power was/is used in reading education (in at least the U. S.). The pragmatists pointed toward the language school personnel use to represent and reflect upon their interests and experiences while teaching reading, and then, to follow the consequences of their acting on those reflections. I concluded initially that three hegemonic discourses (science, business, and the state) speak through school personnel’s words and actions (Broken Promises, 1988). I’ve tracked the consequences of those discourses over time (e.g., Reading Against Democracy, 2007; Closer Readings of the Common Core, 2013; and Reading Poverty in America, 2014).*
You can read current consequences of the continued power of those three discourses in the recent struggles over the definitions of reading and reading instruction as it played out in the New York Times this spring – insisting reading is a psychological, not a set of social, cultural, and historical practices; treating reading instruction as a market and reading as human capital, not creative, contextualized, human endeavors; and mandating guidelines for schools and teachers to overcome social and economic inequalities, not social problems in need of collective democratic solutions.
For example, the New YorkTimes reported that the COVID pandemic resulted in a “reading crisis” across the country as systematic reading lessons moved online render the lessons to be parents’ responsibility (Jonathan Wolfe). Reflecting on his struggles with learning to read at school, the new mayor of New York City mandated that city teachers be “trained” to use phonics-based commercial reading programs to teach reading in order to overcome the crisis (Lola Fadulu). Ten days later, a Times reporter described how Columbia University professor Lucy Calkins “retreated” from meaning centered lesson to a more sound oriented position in her commercial materials (which occupies one quarter of the US market for reading education) (Dana Goldstein).
*I address a history of counter-discourses in The Struggle to Continue, 1990; Progressive Reading Instruction in America, 2017.
CORRIGAN: Throughout the middle chapters of the book you discuss reading specific types of social texts (like NPR and Google Maps), and you also present a more general theory of reading (regarding sociological competence, sociological imagination, pluralism, etc.). In other words, these chapters take up the somewhat traditional matters related to reading: texts, ideas, the life of the mind. But all of that appears bookended with two case studies from “real life,” a less traditional concern for reading: one case is about the fate of a canyon wilderness area and the other is about a dying town being revitalized and the questions are about what to do and what is being done in each situation that affects real lives of real people and environments. Through this bookending, the reading life gets anchored in the life of action—even activism—such that reading is not just about thinking and feeling but also about doing. Can you elaborate on that?
SHANNON: Bear with me…I find it not useful to consider ideas separately from actions because we must experiment to adapt to continuously changing physical and social environments. That need to adapt, to experiment, induces our ideas; not the other way around. Wide-awake reading is an array adaptation practices – ways for Americans to enhance our “self-evident” right to participate as peers with all others in the making of democratic social life. Perhaps, that is what could be meant by reading as activism – wide awake readers refuse to cede that right to others and exercise ‘intelligent action.’ I didn’t make this up – see quotes below – listed in chronological order, not the order of my ‘discovery’ of these authors (Marx, Foucault, Dewey, Emerson).
Emerson: Circles 1841
In nature every moment is new; the past is always swallowed and forgotten; the coming only is sacred. Nothing is secure but life, transition, the energizing spirit. No love can be bound by oath or covenant to secure it against a higher love. No truth so sublime but it may be trivial to-morrow in the light of new thoughts. People wish to be settled; only as far as they are unsettled is there any hope for them.
I am only an experimenter. Do not set the least value on what I do, or the least discredit on what I do not, as if I pretended to settle anything as true or false. I unsettle all things. No facts are to me sacred; none are profane; I simply experiment, an endless seeker, with no Past at my back.
Marx: Eleventh Thesis on Feuerbach, 1888
The philosophers have only interpreted the world in various ways; the point, however, is to change it.
Dewey: Democracy and Education (1916)
We can definitely foresee results only as we make careful scrutiny of present conditions, and the importance of the outcome supplies the motive for observations. The more adequate our observations, the more varied is the scene of conditions and obstructions that presents itself, and the more numerous are the alternatives between which choice may be made. In turn, the more numerous the recognized possibilities of the situation, or alternatives of action, the more meaning does the chosen activity possess, and the more flexibly controllable it is.
Foucault: “On the Genealogy of Ethics’ (1983)
My point is not that everything is bad, but that everything is dangerous, which is not exactly the same as bad. If everything is dangerous, then we always have something to do. So my position leads not to apathy but to a hyper- and pessimistic activism. I think that the ethico-political choice we have to make every day is to determine which is the main danger.
Human agency begins in the deep and critical reading of the present conditions in our attempts to adapt to continuously changing environments. Marx directs Emerson’s experimenters to collective action within their historical contexts, and toward equality; Dewey engages experimenters in intelligent actions to address social problems to move closer to the realization of the promises of democracy; and Foucault warns experimenters that consequences of all alternatives are dangerous, at least to some group(s), regardless of experimenters’ aims. He rejects cynicism and passivity, setting individual and collective daily agendas to decide and act on the main dangers.
CORRIGAN: In Reading Wide Awake, you connect reading to an embrace of such values as democracy, dissensus, difference, pluralism. The idea is that reading can enable and motivate readers to genuinely dialogue with those who are different and who hold different values, beliefs, opinions. But Reading Wide Awake came out in 2011, a few years before what appeared to me to be a remarkable intensification of conflict, fake news, and bad faith arguments in the United States—the Trump era. Has your hope for the possibilities of collaboration, dissensus, and dialogue changed since?
SHANNON: My short answer is “no.” If anything, the last decade has made me more committed to those values, and I thank you for considering that “reading wide awake” could serve as a tool in the on-going “real utopian project” of the making of democracy for these times. Many share your interpretation (although they vary in readings of the problem): Zolan Kanno-Youngs and Michael D. Shear, Sarah Vowell, Max Fisher.
Liberal democracy is not a thing or a template to be applied; rather, it is a method for identifying and solving the common problems of securing the rights of life and pursuit of happiness for all, across time and contexts. According to John Dewey, “The democratic faith in equality is the faith that each individual shall have the chance and opportunity to contribute whatever he is capable of contributing, and that the value of his contribution be decided by its place and function in the organized total of similar contributions: —not on the basis of prior status of any kind whatever.”
For the individual, democracy means having a share in directing the activities of the group – participatory parity; for the group, democracy demands the development and maintenance of social arrangements enabling the liberation of the potentials of each individual member. Those are unmet promises made in the second sentence of The Declaration of Independence. Democratic patriots are keepers of that faith, acting to ensure that this country lives up to those principles within and across its borders. I am a patriot.
Other patriots and I read the texts and contexts to name, resist, dismantle barriers to democratic possibilities and to develop and maintain social arrangements which would enable greater participatory party among all groups and individuals. Even among patriots, however, conflict is likely because we begin our searches for just social arrangements from differing historical positions, and therefore, while we share at least a rhetorical goal, our interests and strategies will differ necessarily. Chantel Mouffe (2018) argues “in a democratic polity, conflict and confrontation, far from being a sign of imperfection, indicate that democracy is alive and inhabited by pluralism.” What we patriots need then are ways to keep that agonism from becoming antagonism. Many imply that it might already be too late for dissensus – a process of identifying differences and locating these differences in relation to each other, leading to collective explanations of how people differ, where their differences come from, and whether they can live and work together with these differences. However, unless individuals and groups have given up entirely on democratic faith, I believe dissensus is possible and necessary to build coalitions among disparate groups to continue the search for and reality of democratic social arrangements.
If we engage in real utopian projects for liberal democracy within pluralistic societies, then patriots must engage in practices of dissensus to support others and ourselves as we sort through our repertoires of social discourses to find points of, at least temporary, agreement. Dissensus affords the possibility(ies) for coalitions to form around specific goals and strategies to act intelligently toward the promises of democracy. As Eric Olin Wright (2010) explained, these projects are utopian because we are thinking about alternatives that embody our deepest aspirations for a just society, and each is real because we continue to experiment with and deliberate within our associated ways of living as we struggle toward the just (and flexible) social arrangements across contexts and time. Reading wide awake can alert us to the ways power works through the “texts” of our lives, enabling us patriots to tame the harm caused by barriers to participatory parity, to erode those barriers through our actions, and to experiment toward just social arrangements. Keep the democratic faith!
CORRIGAN: Since you are on one hand a college professor and on the other hand a scholar who studies K12 education and a teacher who teaches (future) K12 teachers, it seems you have an unique view into both worlds: education in college and education before college. Traditionally and unfortunately, there has been, at least in my experience, little exchange of pedagogy across that line. But I think there are things we could learn from some cross pollination. So in that spirit, I’m curious if you might comment on what commonalities and what differences you see between what we ought to be teaching about reading before college compared to in college.
SHANNON: Most texts I encounter are institutionally produced to teach me who I am, what I should know, value, and do. Unfortunately for me, but certainly by design, they are intended to position me as a consumer, not a producer. Government, business, media news and entertainment, church, science, sports, and other institutions teach me not only to consume goods and services, but also, to swallow expert opinion, idealized representations of the past, and the spectacle of celebrity and success, as if their texts were representations of the way things are and should be. I am to receive from others and not create for myself and contribute with others; I am free to choose among, but not to determine, alternatives. These institutional texts leave little space for me to think outside their intended parameters or to imagine what they left unstated. Their intentions are not my personal problems alone; they are social issues affecting many if not all. These texts, most texts, intend to teach us that civic life is complex and boring, we’re not smart enough to understand or change it, and therefore, we should seek only comfort and security for ourselves and family. These lessons are dangerous for our individual and collective identities and agencies, and I believe, main dangers for the health of our pluralistic democracy.
Except for middle school/junior high, I’ve taught at every level from preschool to doctoral study. (I am afraid of tweens and early adolescents for reasons obvious to anyone who has personal knowledge of this age group.) Reading the texts of my teaching experiences tells me that schools participate in limiting the potential power of reading through decisions surrounding the social arrangements of school curricula and pedagogy. From my first encounter with official reading instruction as a teacher (and a student in the 50s) to the assigned reading list for the History of Reading Research which began my focused study of reading, to my assignment to teach a course on reading and teaching to 300 or more students each semester, schooling has undersold readings’ personal, social, and civic potential. The result, I fear, is that school teaches our students that they are consumers of social life, and not active, equal participants in its continuous making. So my comment to preK-25 teachers about reading is a question (an on-going inquiry really). How can we tame and erode the intentions behind school texts in order to disrupt the production of ‘sleepy’ readers, to develop the social arrangements of our classes, engaging all our students in reading wide awake; and to encourage participatory parity in the making of pluralistic democracies in and out of school?
My recommendation is to trust our students, to see them as interesting and interested, to arrange our courses and readings to enable participatory parity across the differences they bring to class, to seek real reasons for them to engage in dissensus, and to act on their new knowledge and convictions through the discourses we represent.
I’ll share one effort to address this question. During the decade before I retired, I worked with others to reorganize our university’s K-12 reading specialist certification coursework. We sought to add secondary discourses to our students’ repertoires so that they could choose to critique, tame, and erode the typical specialist habitus. Specialists are assigned officially to support students at any grade level who have been labeled as struggling to learn to read and write at school. By law and tradition, these public-school programs are typically organized around assumptions that during their cognitive development of the reading process to date, strugglers have failed to learn one or more code-breaking skills and/or mechanical strategies for extracting meaning from passages – that is their cognitive development of the reading process is incomplete for the demands of their schooling. Specialists are to repair these failures by diagnosing and remediating these problems, bringing students to mastery through scientifically-based reading instruction, and then, to send repaired students back to regular classes able to complete reading assignments. Often, specialists are taught to focus primarily on the how to read and to devote less or little attention to: why read; how texts work; why and how struggling students should assess texts’ intentions; or how struggling students make sense of (all types of) texts outside of school. If these typical reading specialist assumptions, practices, and absences brought the desired consequences, then perhaps, all these explicit and implicit lessons would be warranted. However, beyond the immediate contexts of those lessons, desired outcomes have been scarce – even by their gold standard measure, annual reading test scores. *
Our efforts were complicated by the accreditation processes legally and professionally required for all specialized certification courses. We could not just “do as we pleased.” We proposed our changes as a design experiment with the expected outcome of specialists with competence and imagination. We were approved with “some” concern from the state and some accolades from the profession. Our graduates would be competent (all would pass the state certification licensing exam for reading specialists and be recommended by practicing specialists based on a practicum experience) and imaginative (able to design and act upon social arrangements for learning to read that are not yet, but could be, if specialist focused on the roles for reading in the development of self and democracy). Our assumption for the experiment was that if the specialist could see themselves as reading agents – participants as peers with all others in the decisions of reading programs – they could demonstrate that agency for their students and negotiate/develop social arrangements in their classroom that immersed their students in participatory parity of its social life.
This is getting long and you’re probably now sorry you asked. I’ll be brief. We tripled our teaching workloads to develop three discourses for reading specialists: cognitive, socio-cultural, and political – creating three identity kits of how to speak, think, value and act accordingly across issues of pluralism, policy, scientific warrants, curriculum, and pedagogy. We arranged students in groups of at least three, encouraging the members to deliberate over meanings and likely consequences of their readings of the social things of reading specialists (e.g., cultural differences of experiences, ability grouping, technical reports, time scheduling, state mandates, book chapters, room arrangements, journal articles, pedagogical strategies, tests and assessment procedures, parents/guardians…). Whole class discussions became purposeful exercises of dissensus – always with obligation to move forward toward our state obligation to enter schools to demonstrate reading specialist competence (equipped with multiple discourses with which to read the intentions behind existing school texts), and then, to use our individual and collective imaginations to design, construct, and implement the social arrangements we thought most likely to support our first through eighth grade struggling students as wide-awake readers. From the first course to the tenth, university instructors and school supervisors worked to communicate to each cohort of university students that we expected them to be successful and we were there to support them.
Early in our efforts to remake the reading specialist courses, the students and the instructors decided that a museum was most likely to enable us to develop social arrangements that would afford struggling students the opportunity and support to develop wide awake reading. (There are ten museums on campus of various sizes and budgets.) Each university student cohort began its courses with severe doubts that such students were capable to produce exhibits individually and a museum collectively based solely on their readings and actions. Before the final imagination practicum, we worked collectively to develop our students’ language to discuss, if not believe, that a museum was possible. Doubling down on the university instructors’ belief that our (now) Teachers and their Curators could and would indeed engage actively in the inquiries and production, we scheduled a grand opening for the museum on the last day of practicum.
Following John Dewey’s (1938) notion that the realization of any ideal must be based on experience, Teachers organized practicums’ social arrangements to reduce, if not eliminate, barriers to each Curator’s participation as a peer in the design, construction, and presentation of multimodal museum exhibits on a central topic (e.g., habitats, transportation, weather). Prior to the practicum, neither Teachers nor Curators were experts concerning museums or the central topic, although each brought differing amounts of experience with each. They would learn both together. Teachers provided support for Curators as they read to become experts on the topic (“What do you know about . . . ? How do you know that? What would you like to learn about? Would you like help with that?”), and then, write and with the assistance of a resident community artist create multimodal texts to represent their new knowledge for the expected visitors to the museum (“What caught your interest in the museum we visited? How was it interesting? What would you like to write and show about your new knowledge? Would you like help with that?”).
Scores of family members, university personnel, and former participants visited the two-hour museum opening each year. We never had to defend our goals and methods to visitors, parents or Curators because our practice-based events (process and product) trumped the evidence-based practices that Curators (and their parents/guardians) experienced at school. Although the thick school folders that accompany Curators label them as autistic, behind, ELL, learning disabled, dyslexic, or ADHD, every Curator demonstrated her/his/their literate competence by producing and presenting (proudly) an exhibit situated prominently within the museum (two university classrooms and a connecting hallway). And every Teacher showed some signs of reading wide awake. Here’s an excerpt of Teacher Joshua’s final report on Curator Tim.
What does Tim need? It depends:
If you read his folder….
If you watch him during independent reading,…
If you sit next to him and listen to him read a book you picked for him….
But if you work with him on his model train, then….
The first three “ifs” suggest that Tim can’t read well enough to engage in inquiry, and therefore, he needs preliminary skill lessons before you start. The last one shows you that you don’t know Tim or his capabilities unless you let him participate (2014).
* Despite a century of reading research and billions of dollars invested annually in reading education, students from low income families (Carnoy & Rothstein, 2013)— confounded by race (Vigor, 2011), immigrant status (Swartz & Stiefel, 2011) and segregated location (Burdkick-Will et al., 2011)—continue to “struggle” with school literacy. Although some schools have made modest improvements (Rowan, 2011), the overall income achievement gap has increased by 40% since the Reagan Administration (Reardon, 2011).
CORRIGAN: You stress in Reading Wide Awake that you’re still learning how to read. So what have you learned since writing this book?
SHANNON: In 2017, Penn State offered the ARod-deal to all employees of a certain age and length of employment. We had lived in the Happy Valley since 1990. I qualified, took the year’s salary to not come back (the NY Yankees offered this deal to Alex Rodriguez to induce his retirement), and began to write an operetta entitled ‘Bourne in the USA’ (while trying vainly to read ‘flow offense’ during noon basketball games). I’m working on a third draft, learning how to read many genres of musical theater in front of and behind the curtain as well as popular music at the turn of the 19th century and symbols of American social, economic, intellectual, and political history between the depression of ’93 and the end of WWI. It continues to be a thrilling, and humbling experience. When I admit to others what I’m doing “these days”, they often ask: “How are you prepared?” “Who’s Bourne?” “Why now?” “What will Bruce say?”
I have played in a garage band since 1966 (The Root Beer Beaver), appeared in several musicals as a high school student (portraying a sailor in the South Pacific, a Jet, and Conrad Birdie), and maintained a dozen or so pages of decades-old notes on Randolph Bourne. I have formal training in neither music nor theater. When Kathleen and I visit theaters now, we are becoming “wide awake” to ways in which all involved work collectively to produce that play on that “stage” in these times to teach the audience who we are, what we should know and value, and what we should do. In State College, NYC and the Twin Cities, these lessons have changed our theatering experiences, making us attentive differently than my pre-Bourne afternoons and evenings.
I declare that I’m a playwright in the making who is sampling the melodies from popular songs of Bourne’s times, rewriting lyrics to “teach” audiences Bourne’s democracy faith, and drawing images of staging for each scene, both acts, and the whole play. This is shorthand for the new ways I’m reading: new technologies, musical notation, emotional effects of auditory, physical, and visual symbols, historical presentism, lyricism across time, and technical, kinesthetic, physical, and aesthetic practices and objects of musical theater. Keeps me busy.
I picked Bourne as a subject because his life offers remarkable examples of reading wide awake and the challenges of patriotism. Bourne was a social critic and essayist who died in 1918 at the age of 32. I “discovered” Bourne (and began my notes) while reading about John Dewey and the counter-hegemonic discourse of progressive education (unassigned, but necessary texts for that first course in the UMN doctoral program). Bourne was Dewey’s student at Columbia University and wrote two books on education (and another concerning youth culture). I reconnected with Bourne when I read Jeremy McCarter’s 2017 New Yorker piece “The Critic Who Refuted Trump’s World View, in 1916.” McCarter called Bourne, the “Anti-Trump” for Bourne’s essay “Trans-National America” (published in The Atlantic Monthly). Jennifer Ratner-Rosenhagen devoted three pages to that essay in her 2021 book American Intellectual History: A Very Short Introduction (Thomas Jefferson gets two pages and Dewey none in the 130 pages of prose). Between 1911 and 1918, Bourne wrote over 1400 essays that were published in regional and national magazines (e.g., Columbia Review, The Atlantic Monthly, The New Republic, The Masses, The Dial, Seven Arts).
In its current form, the operetta has two acts. I’ve structured the first around Bourne’s writing of his first national publication “The Handicapped by One of Their Own” (The Atlantic Monthly, 1914). The attending physician misused forceps during Bourne’s birth, changing the shape of his head and altering his breathing, voice, and hearing. At four, Bourne contracted spinal tuberculosis, which over three years curved his spine and limited his gate and height. The Atlantic publisher asked Bourne to write an autobiographical piece to explain his life “struggles.” That essay is often cited as a founding manifesto of the disability rights movement in America. It ends: “Do not take the world too seriously, nor let too many social conventions oppress you. Keep sweet your sense of humor, and above all do not let any morbid feelings of inferiority creep into your soul.”
Floyd Dell’s obituary for Bourne (1919) frames the second act, highlighting Bourne’s participation in the bohemian culture of Greenwich Village, his “Trans-National America” argument for cosmopolitanism over melting pot assimilation to adopted Anglo Saxon cultural expectations, and his vanguard leadership of the anti-war movement (See Twilight of Idols, 1917). In the latter, Bourne explained that Americans couldn’t “make the world safe for democracy” by suppressing it at home or through military force abroad. Bourne’s positions proved unpopular with business and the state, and Bourne died of the Spanish Flu penniless and sleeping on his fiancee’s divan. As Dell (1919) explained:
“There are few avenues of expression for protest, however sane and far-seeing, against the mood of a nation in arms; and one by one, most of these were closed to him as he went on speaking out his thought. It is one of the more subtly tragic aspects of his death, a misfortune not only to a fecund mind that needed free utterance, but to a country which is nearly starved for thought, that he should in these last years have been doomed to silence.”
Oh, and I anticipate Springsteen and E Street will play the opening bars of the overture…
Allanté Whitmore, PhD started the Blk + In Grad School podcast on her phone, a podcast created to encourage and inspire people of color in grad school. It’s since grown to over 160 episodes with a new season on the way.
Discover Allanté’s journey as a podcast producer and host. It’s all in this featured interview on The Social Academic blog.
Meet Allanté
Jennifer: Hi, everyone. This is Jennifer van Alstyne. Welcome to The Social Academic featured interview series.
Today, I’m speaking with Dr. Allanté Whitmore. We’re gonna be talking about podcasting, which is something a lot of you have been interested in. I’m excited for you to be here today.
Would you please introduce yourself? Just let everyone know who you are?
Allanté: Absolutely. Jennifer, thank you so much for having me on the podcast. We’ve been internet buddies for years now which is kind of amazing. So excited to be here.
So hi, everybody, my name’s Allanté Whitmore, PhD. I recently completed a joint PhD in Civil Engineering and Engineering and Public Policy at Carnegie Mellon University where I studied autonomous vehicle policy research.
On the weekends, and in the wee hours of the night, I built a podcast and community called Blk + In Grad School. There I chronicle my experience as a black woman pursuing a PhD in Engineering. I also interview other graduate students and early career professionals about their graduate experience. With the whole hope of
Motivating
Inspiring
Providing tips and tricks
Mindset shifts
for graduate students to get through their journey.
Jennifer: Oh, I love that. What a good podcast topic. It’s also gonna help so many people. It’s one of those things that those resources are gonna be valuable to people again and again for years to come.
Allanté started a podcast to create the resource she needed in grad school
Jennifer: What inspired you to start a podcast?
Allanté: Yeah, absolutely. Honestly, my own experience through grad school.
Prior to going to Carnegie Mellon, I finished my master’s at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. And I did undergrad at North Carolina Agricultural Technical State University which is a historically black college [HBCU].
The transition between my undergraduate experience and grad school was very jarring.
A lot of people maybe assumed because I moved from an HBCU to a predominantly white institution…the academic rigor was the same.
It was the social pieces and some of that kind of hidden curriculum around how one navigates themselves as a graduate student that I really wasn’t knowledgeable about.
I really stumbled through my 1st graduate school experience. I didn’t know I was supposed to show up to Friday coffee to connect with my professors. I wasn’t really involved or engaged in a way that was beneficial to me as someone who’s aspiring a profession and career.
When I left, I finished my master’s, I went and worked in Detroit at the McNair Scholars Program at Wayne State University. I led that program. If you’re not familiar with McNair Scholars, it’s a program that helps 1st generation low income students go to graduate school. There, I got all this professional training around grad school readiness and retention in graduate school.
Coupled with my own experience in my professional training, I just felt when I decided to go back to graduate school…There was so much I wished someone told me that had nothing to do with the technical or academic skills we need to be successful. I think a lot of us have that already.
It’s just like, oh yeah
You’re supposed to go to Friday coffee.
This is how you manage a meeting with your advisor.
Here’s how you kind of work through those stickier situations where we may not have a safe space to ask those questions at our university.
That is how Blk + In Grad School started. The whole idea was what I wish someone told me. The research I wish I had when I started back in 2012.
Jennifer: Oh, I love that. It sounds like what you went through in your experiences helped inspire you to create this beneficial resource for everyone who is going through it now. And who may be advising students who are also going through this journey.
You said earlier, ‘hidden curriculum.’ In grad school, especially if you’re not from an academic family, if your parents aren’t PhDs. Especially if you’re from a low income household…There are these kinds of hidden curriculum things that no one’s gonna tell you unless someone like you creates resources around it. I love that you’re welcoming that community and starting that conversation for so many people across the country.
Jennifer: Now how did you get started podcasting? A lot of people are like, ‘Oh yeah, I wanna have a podcast.’ But what was the process for you like when you were getting started and hitting the ground running?
Allanté: Oh yeah, absolutely. Now, I would not recommend my path [laughs].
Jennifer: That’s good to know too.
Allanté: This was 5 years ago. Okay? When you could start things on your phone. I swear y’all, for those listening, I literally grabbed my phone and put the mic as close to my mouth. If you go back to like the first 10 episodes they’re terrible because it’s literally me on my blow up mattress because I didn’t have a bed yet. I had just moved to Pennsylvania.
I maybe did a little bit of light editing on my computer. But it was literally stream of consciousness. That’s how I started Blk + In Grad School.
Then I upgraded to my computer. The next 20 episodes are me huffing into the computer.
Then I finally invested in a mic and the quality improved.
I started to invest in editing and started to think about crafting stories.
I started interviewing people around the 20th episode as well. I was like, “Oh, this could be really good to bring in more perspectives, more experiences.” It was a very organic growth that happened from the start.
I would not recommend starting with your phone anymore. We have really great inexpensive mics that you can get started.
Jennifer: That’s so cool that it really was this project and you’re like, ‘I’m gonna do it. Even if it’s on my blow up mattress with my phone in my hand. I’m going to create this.’
Allanté: Oh gosh. Another transparency moment for me: I actually hate writing. Right? [Jennifer laughs.]
I’m an engineer. I’m an engineer through and through where I wrote quite literally what was exactly needed to get this PhD. And technical writing is way different than creative writing. I definitely feel more comfortable writing for research.
In my life prior to being in graduate school, I’ve done a number of entrepreneurial pursuits. One of them was a blog. Hated it.
Tried vlogging, hated it. I wasn’t able to keep up with it.
And so what I love about podcasting is that I was able to be consistent. It was low pressure for me as someone who’s kind of on the go. Even now, I just left the gym. I have a hat on. Like, Jennifer looks beautiful. Eyebrows done, lipstick. I put lipgloss on and got here. And podcasting takes that pressure away from me.
Jennifer: It does.
Allanté: Yeah, so I can create consistently. And I’m not really worried about the visual…I love podcasts. I kind of started to realize the power of podcasting and having someone in your ears. And the intimate moment of listening to someone else’s thoughts or hearing their perspective.
It just felt like a very natural fit because I had tried other forms. They weren’t really for me. And in this one, I was able to make stick.
Jennifer: Yeah. So your podcast listener yourself. And you tried blogging and didn’t enjoy it.
I really like the things you said about how it allowed you to really be consistent. That is so important when we’re creating something new. When we’re creating this kind of new project that is going to take an unknown amount of time.
Really, when we’re starting out, that idea of consistency is something that a lot of people don’t think about.
And when professors tend to approach me and they’re like, ‘I wanna start a blog. You know, I’m excited about this.” And I talk with them a little bit about some of the things that go into it. And how much work they might have to do in order to get things up and running. And they’re like, ‘Oh my gosh, I had no idea.’
Finding a budget for a podcast editor
Jennifer: Was there anything that was really surprising about the podcasting process that you learned once you kind of got into it?
Allanté: In my 2nd year of my program, I moved into a cheaper apartment because I really was enjoying Blk + In Grad School. I knew I needed to be able to put a little money towards it. As a grad student I was earning nothing. But I was like, ‘Okay, I can now carve out $100-$200 a month toward an editor.’ That was the 1st thing I invested in to take that off my plate.
It’s very time consuming and I’m grateful to my [podcast] editor who’s like one of my best friends, Stephanie. I’m also very fortunate to have a best friend who is an editor, right?
Jennifer: That’s wonderful.
Allanté: Yes! I’m very grateful for her. I told her, ‘Hey, I’m doing this project. Here’s what I can afford right now.’ And as Blk + In Grad School grew, I was able to do some increases in her pay. She was also a very supportive person.
You can look in at Fiverr, you can look in at Upwork. You can do a bunch of things to delegate if you know there’s a piece of the process that you simply don’t wanna do. Or, that you don’t have the time to do.
Editing was the piece that I think I very quickly realized this is a time suck for me. That it would actually harm or decrease my productivity or consistency if I’m the person responsible for editing.
Jennifer: That is so smart. It’s really nice that you figured out the piece of that puzzle where if you send this off and get some help with it, that’s what’s gonna allow you to actually produce more. And put more energy, the kind of energy you want into this project.
I love that you chose to change your lifestyle in order to actually put more energy into this and more finances too.
A lot of people don’t realize that some money may have to go into the kind of upkeep or creation of a project like this. I really appreciate your transparency with that.
Allanté: Absolutely.
How starting a podcast has impacted Allanté‘s life
Jennifer: Now, you must have made that decision because it was impacting you in some greater way.
I’m curious, what kind of impact has the podcast had on your life? Or, your online community?
Allanté: So many amazing things have come from Blk + In Grad School. I genuinely was just creating something I wish existed. Right?
From that I have had speaking engagements at universities across the country, which is really exciting. Especially during the pandemic, I was able to do a lot since it was virtual.
Jennifer: That’s great!
Allanté: Yeah, it blew my mind. Right?
I’ve done campaigns. I’ve dabbled in the influencer space as a result of Blk + In Grad School, representing the graduate lifestyle to an extent.
Jennifer: Oooh.
Allanté: It’s very interesting.
I don’t fully take on the identity of an ‘influencer.’ It feels awkward. But the reality is that it’s a stream of income that has been helpful.
Especially when I was finishing up my PhD in the last like year or so. It was really like, ‘Okay, this is actually bringing in income,’ sponsorships.
Lastly, my community. In 2019, I started The Scholar Circle. It’s a community for folks in grad school. It’s an accountability and coworking community. We meet 3 times a week for a total of roughly 8 hours over those 3 sessions. We work together. We get things done.
In the membership community, there are a host of resources to help you through your graduate journey. That also became a piece that I didn’t anticipate growing. I will also be honest, that was very hard to grow. That took time. And even still, it takes time to readjust and attract new people. That is a task, but it’s a labor of love.
All of these different things have kind of cropped up.
There’s just like so many different kinds of new streams of income that helped me support the podcast so I didn’t have to be the one putting the money into it.
Jennifer: Oh, that’s amazing. So, you’ve created streams of income that are associated with the content that you create, this podcast. And that helps you support the creation of the podcast.
Allanté: That’s right.
Jennifer: If The Scholar Circle, that kind of co-working and accountability sounds great to you, check that out.
Jennifer: One thing that I love about your Instagram and your online presence is that community feel is really there as well. When you’re talking about how you are picking up some sponsored and campaigns for some influencer type things that makes total sense to me. Because the audience that is already following you, the people that are connected with you, they wanna see more content about grad school.
They wanna see more of that lifestyle and what you were going through as well. I love that you were a great representative for them and that companies were able to work with you for that kind of thing.
Allanté: Yeah, thank you. I mean that totally came left field. [Jennifer laughs.] And it’s still so funny nowadays because I realize it is a lucrative option. And recognizing that Blk + In Grad School is also very niche.
There’s a really interesting balancing act that happens there. It’s been very helpful. It’s like, ‘Okay, now I actually have a substantial amount of money I can support. Now I can get more resources. I can now pay someone to help me with The Scholar Circle.
So it all goes back into serving the community. I’m grateful for it.
But I also don’t wanna start spamming the community, right? So there’s like a balance.
Jennifer: Yeah, right.
Allanté: Exactly.
Jennifer: There is a balance. And I’ve never seen anything that looks even remotely like SPAM from your accounts.
Allanté: Yeah. [Laughs.]
Jennifer: You’re always so thoughtful with the content that you share. And actually you’re a great example when I’m talking to other grad students about what they might wanna post on Instagram. I often direct them to your account. I say, “There’s all sorts of things you can do. You can help people. You can talk about your own experiences. And this isn’t a great example for you to check out.”
So I love your Instagram. And oh my gosh, spammy? Definitely not [laughs].
Allanté: I started that the Grad School Success Summit the 1st year of the podcast. That was the event I used to help attract people to Blk + In Grad School.
Not just current grad students, but also other folks in the academic content creation space. That’s how I think I first reached out to you, Jennifer, was to be a speaker.
Jennifer: That’s right. That’s totally right.
Allanté: Yeah. It was really a way for me to kind of tap into the community of content creators who we are supporting the same community.
But then also let new people know ‘Hey, there’s this resource available. You know, it might vibe with you.’ If not, I always share a bunch of other resources that might be a better fit.
This year was the 5th Summit which blows my mind.
Jennifer: Wow! 5 years. I mean that’s really amazing.
Allanté: Thank you. It blows my mind. That is definitely the staple event I have every single year. It’s always helpful in building my email list. That’s my main email list building activity for the year. I really enjoy it.
Those 3 days are intense but really, really fun.
Jennifer: They’re fun. It sounds like it’s something that helps build your list. That helps more people learn about Blk + In Grad School and The Scholar Circle.
How does it help the community? What is the Grad School Success Summit? And who should go to it?
Allanté: I think everyone has the academic skills. I’m really not super concerned with folks having the academic skills. I think if you got into grad school, you’ve got them.
But it’s the social bit. It’s the financial wellness. It’s the emotional wellness. Physical wellness. Creating a personal brand. Right? Building community. All of those other pieces of the grad school experience that universities don’t feel fully responsible for.
I feel like we try our best to create an environment where you can get some tips. You can get some information. Some resources and motivation around any of those topics so you’re a more well rounded graduate student. Not just a brain, you know, doing research day in and day out. And doing homework. And doing readings.
So helping grad students think about what do they want their year to look like? Beyond their academic goals. And how they’re gonna take care of themselves to carry them out is really the impetus behind the Summit.
Jennifer: I love that.
Is there somewhere people can watch the replays if they missed this year’s Summit?
Jennifer: Well I’d love to hear what you’re up to now. Congratulations on finishing your PhD.
Allanté: Thank you.
Jennifer: I know that you’re in a new job. So I’d love to hear a little about it.
Allanté: Yeah, absolutely.
So, I have left academia. That was honestly so stressful to actually admit on the internet. I don’t know why.
I just feel like there’s this assumption, even my own inner feeling that we’re supposed to go onto a tenure track position.
I had a really great opportunity at a national energy security organization. We look at transportation policy as it relates to reducing our dependence on oil. I am now the Director of the Autonomous Vehicle Policy Research Center there.
Jennifer: Exciting!
Allanté: It’s really exciting! Yeah! It’s really exciting work. I get to do exactly what I’ve always wanted to do, which is stand between technical folks (so automakers in this particular expertise I’ve built) and policy makers to communicate what’s happening on that side. See what’s happening with policy. To help create policy. And my emphasis on equity informed policies, so how do we make sure that things are good for everybody.
Jennifer: So that they’re accessible.
Allanté: Yeah, yeah. It’s exciting.
Jennifer: I love that! Now, since you were kind of anxious about talking about it online, what kind of reaction did you get to announcing you were leaving academia?
Allanté: All resounding ‘Good for you’s [laughs].
Jennifer: Yay! [Claps.] So if you’re also leaving academia, or thinking about it, it is okay to talk about online. A lot of people are gonna cheer you on.
Allanté: Yeah, that’s right. That’s right.
There are some folks who were like, “Oh, I think you would have made a great professor.” And it doesn’t mean that part of my life is absolutely not an option, right? But yeah.
Mostly we get it. It’s hard out here.
Finishing grad school after the peak of the pandemic, so the academic job market was something I just wasn’t really in a place to even do at the time. I was like, ‘I just wanna figure things out if I need to. But I’m very [emphasis] happy with my position.
Jennifer: It sounds like you’re exactly where you wanna be. Right in that place with policy and the automakers themselves. So that’s so cool.
TikTok is Allanté’s favorite social media platform
Jennifer: One thing that I wanted to be sure to ask you about is what is your favorite social media platform? You do have a big online presence. You’ve got multiple websites. You’ve got your Instagram, your YouTube. Which is your favorite?
Allanté: TikTok! [Laughs.] Where I’m not at.
[Jennifer: laughing loudly] That’s so funny! Why do you like TikTok so much?
Allanté: I love TikTok. I have a very irreverent sense of humor and I feel like TikTok is full of all of the, like, just wild and kind of wacky stuff. I thoroughly enjoy that.
Jennifer: It fits your personality.
Allanté: Yeah, yeah. There’s things on there. I’d create a page…But I enjoy consuming TikTok. I haven’t gotten to where I wanna contribute too much.
Jennifer: Well you’re a creator in a lot of different areas. You don’t need to create on every platform. Especially the ones you enjoy consuming the most. [Allanté nods her head.]
That’s really fun to hear about when you have so many social media platforms.
Keeping her online presence updated
Jennifer: How do you manage all of that? Like you have multiple websites. You got the social media. That’s a lot to keep track of.
I have a pretty good system with the podcast. Right now, the podcast isn’t on YouTube. I only have like the Summit on YouTube. When I first started, I did a couple of webinars. So they’re there.
My YouTube is pretty tame. That keeps it very manageable for me where I’m only adding 6 new videos a year for those 3 days that we have the Summit.
Jennifer: Nice.
Allanté: Now as far as the websites, everything from the podcast goes to the website. Once I create a podcast episode through my podcast provider, I then link everything: the show notes, all of that. I’m pretty much just repurposing all of that written content and putting it into a blog post on the website. That keeps it very easy to maintain and pretty low maintenance.
Now the social media piece, that’s where probably the bulk of my content creation energy goes. Because you have to create things all the time.
I more recently took a break because I was writing my dissertation. Honestly, so much life has happened since I finished my PhD. Even like us recording is getting me back into the groove of content creation.
Jennifer: Right.
Allanté: What that looked like before was, ‘Okay, I have this episode that’s gonna go out. I only need 2 more pieces of content around the post with the podcast every week. So that’s kind of how I managed it and kept it very low maintenance for me. Like, I can create 2 more pieces of content.
Jennifer: It sounds like you have a good system.
Allanté: Yeah, I do. Thanks.
Jennifer: I like that your system is all based around the podcast. And figuring out what needs to be shared, where it needs to be shared, and when. Right? That’s the multiple posts part. But it sounds like you have a system in place.
I love that you took a break during your dissertation. And even afterwards. Taking a break from social media is so important, especially for our mental health and well-being. It’s great that you shared that as well.
Jennifer: Now, is there anything else that you’d like to add that you wanna be sure to talk about during this interview? I’m having so much fun.
Allanté: I know! Me too.
Only thing I’d say, for anyone who is starting out. The advice I give everyone, and this is what I did when I started the podcast…
Before you go live, create 5-10 pieces of content.
Jennifer: Oooh. Why?
Allanté: 1: you’re practicing the consistency of creating the content and making it a part of your schedule. Even if that means you’re sitting and bashing it. It’s like, ‘Okay, this is how long it takes me to make 5-10 episodes. Or 5-10 videos. 5-10 blog posts, whatever.
Then you can schedule those anchor pieces of content over those 10 weeks, 5 weeks, what have you. If it’s every other week, now you’ve got 20 weeks worth of content if it’s biweekly that you’re producing content.
You get to kind of mess up too. Those very 1st episodes, I don’t listen to. Because they’re not great! But, I got to figure out so much with those first few episodes. Then I could reassess and create some direction. And decide if I like it.
I think all of those bits are really important, 1: with building an audience, and 2: figuring out what works for you and your flow. And making sure you can stay committed to something you said you were going to do.
Jennifer: You have to like it. Right? It’s a big project. It takes a lot of energy and maybe even some finances if you want to get into it. So liking it is important [laughs].
And I’m glad you had a topic you were passionate about. And that you put all this energy into. Because you created something amazing.
Jennifer: What is next for Blk + In Grad School? Will there be a new season?
Allanté: Yeah! Literally, I recorded an episode yesterday. It’s so exciting. I definitely wanna hit 200 episodes. We’re at 165 right now. So I know the goal right now is okay, hit 200. And then we will reassess again.
[Allanté and Jennifer laugh.]
Allanté: But I’m definitely wanting to serve the community. I’m open to what that looks like. I think there might be time for a new voice. There might be time for a different approach. I’m really open to what’s needed from me.
And also balancing my life post-grad school. Right? My time is different. I actually travel a lot for work. Figuring that out has been really interesting.
Jennifer: You’ve changed your lifestyle to work with this podcast. And now you’re even maybe changing the podcast to fit with your lifestyle. And what the community is hoping for in the future.
Thank you so much for talking with me today. Dr. Allanté Whitmore, this has been a joy! We’ve been internet buddies for a few years now.
Allanté: Yeah!
Jennifer: I’ve been involved with the Grad School Success Summit. And so I’m so excited that you came on The Social Academic today.
Allanté: Oh, so happy to be here, Jennifer! Like literally means the world to me.
And make sure you link your session from the Summit in the show notes.
Jennifer: Oh! Good idea. I wouldn’t have even thought of that. But I did talk about social media and how to talk about yourself online in grad school. So I’ll link that below as well. Thanks so much!
Allanté Whitmore, PhD(@BlkInGradSchool) is a proud Detroit native. She earned her bachelors in biological engineering at North Carolina Agricultural & Technical State University, and her masters’ in biological and agricultural engineering at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. She earned a joint PhD in Civil Engineering and Engineering and Public Policy from Carnegie Mellon University in 2022.
Allanté’s research focused on uncovering the environmental and social implications of autonomous vehicle technology. She used computer modeling to test different ways in which shared autonomous vehicles and shuttles might be used in public transit systems, with the aims of improving transit access and equity in public transit systems and reducing the transportation sector’s contribution to emissions. Allanté is now the Director of autonomous vehicle policy research at a transportation policy research organization. She continues to create knowledge to inform future policy on shared mobility that ensures physical and environmentally equitable access to transportation.
In her free time, Allanté hosts a podcast, Blk + In Grad School where she chronicles her experience getting her PhD, providing encouragement and tools for women and people of color to successfully navigate the graduate-education journey.
Connect with Allanté on Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok @BlkInGradSchool.
Informational interviews can help your journey from PhD to Life
Jennifer Polk, PhD has been helping PhDs get clear on their career path since 2013. You may have read her articles on University Affairs, Inside Higher Ed, and The Chronicle of Higher Education. If you’re on #AcademicTwitter, you’ve seen her tweets @FromPhDtoLife.
Jen is an expert at helping grad students and people with doctorates confidently market themselves for the jobs they actually want.
What are informational interviews? And, how can they help your transition from academia? It’s all in this interview with career coach, Dr. Jennifer Polk.
Dr. Jennifer Polk, I’m so excited that you’re here to talk with me. Would you mind introducing yourself for everyone?
Jen: Sure, yeah. Thanks for having me!
So feel free to call me Jen, everyone. Dr. Polk if you want to be formal, but Jen is perfectly fine.
The short version is that I help PhDs get clear on their career path so they can confidently market themselves for jobs they actually want. Typically, that means outside of academia. But I’ve worked with everyone, on all the things.
I have a PhD myself in history. I got that 10 years ago. These days, I’m self-employed. And it’s cool. It’s good work to be able to help people figure out what’s next, and get there. It’s very empowering.
Jennifer: That’s great! Thanks for sharing that with me.
Now, I know that it’s really hard to kind of imagine what life might be like outside of the academy for many professors who’ve been in for a long time. But also for graduate students who are going through and really trying to figure out what their next steps are. It’s something that’s affecting everyone, no matter where you are in your academic career.
There may be a good opportunity for you outside of academia. Jen is someone that can help with that.
Jennifer: There’s a way that people can learn more about jobs outside of academia, and that’s through informational interviews. That’s kind of a jargon-y word. What is an informational interview?
Jen: That was a great prompt. Yes, check marks to all of what you said. Totally.
Informational interviews. If you haven’t heard this term before, it might sound very strange. It’s not very eloquent, right? But just know that it is a super common term. Even if you haven’t come across it before, it’s really common. It’s not just corporate. It’s common everywhere.
All it means is having a conversation with somebody who works in a job, a field, for an employer, or who has in the past that interests you. The specifics of that conversation depends on what you want to learn.
This is a learning experience. Sometimes people get the idea that this form of networking–yeah, an informational interview like it is a form of networking–but it’s not really about you. In fact, it is not about you pitching your services or you asking for a job. It’s a learning experience.
I want to emphasize that it is a community building experience. Do you want to be in community with this person and people like them?That’s a short answer to what [an informational interview] is. Just conversating with somebody else.
Jennifer: I love that. I think that so many people have a fear or anxiety about informational interviews. Maybe that’s because they don’t know what it is. It sounds like an info interview is a conversation you have with someone to learn more about their job, or their field. And learn more about them to see if they’re someone that you want to stay connected with, or maybe you want to do a job like that. Or, maybe you don’t. And that’s good information too. Thank you so much for clearing up that definition for everyone.
Jennifer: What advice do you have for those people who are feeling really anxious, or scared, or nervous about approaching an informational interview?
Jen: First off, what you described, Jennifer, is really common. If you are feeling that, welcome. You’re in really excellent company. I’ve been there, and so many of my clients, and the PhDs that interact with grad students, PhDs, all of the above have experienced that. It’s totally normal, common.
Those feelings can be what prevent folks from taking the leap into doing informational interviews. You’re in really good company there.
I’m not answering a question directly, but I will say that once folks start doing informational interviews, it’s like a light goes off. Everything changes. It’s really incredible. I think there’s so many different reasons for that. But I really encourage you to do it. Just take one step at a time. This is not the only way to do it. This is not like the way that is necessarily going to be right for you. But for example, it could be that you decide to do one informational interview with a person that you already know and trust.
Jennifer: Oooh.
Jen: Maybe they’re from your personal life, or family, or you worked with them years ago. So you don’t sort of already know everything about them in terms of their career, and their job, but you know there’s some level of comfort and trust. You say, “Okay.” Maybe you send them a text, or an email, Facebook message, whatever it is:
“Hey, can we have a chat about your job? Because I’m thinking about what I want to do next, and I’m confused about what some options are. You work as a project manager. That’s something that intrigues me. Can we just have a convo so I can learn more about that?”
This is relatively low stakes. That first step is important. Then you take another step after that. Right? This doesn’t have to be this big overwhelming kind of campaign that you go on. Just do it once. Send that one email, send that one message. That’s the first step.
Jennifer: So just sending that first message, and maybe reaching out to someone who you already know, who you’re already familiar with. That can be a really good idea for people who are feeling uncomfortable, or nervous, or anxious about that process. I love that idea, and I think that that would make it so much less anxiety provoking for me. Like, “Oh, you know, I do have people that I could reach out to about that kind of thing. I can have a conversation with that friend that I haven’t talked to in a few years.” I’m sure they wouldn’t be upset to hear about it. If they don’t have time, that’s okay! But I can reach out. That’s pretty low stakes for me, so I really like that.
Jennifer: When people are reaching out for the first time, is there something that holds them back from actually reaching out? Is there something that’s like preventing them from doing that step?
Jen: Yeah, to generalize, I think that folks can get in their heads. Shocking, right? Of course [sarcastically]. And they worry about things that are just way too many steps in the future.
I always like to remind myself, and you know sometimes others is appropriate: that is a later problem. So, first off, don’t get in your head too much.
I think what you said, that if they don’t respond, if they don’t have time, that’s not personal. That’s also a really important reminder. You can send the email. Whether they respond or not is not necessarily about you. Maybe they never checked LinkedIn. Maybe their parent just died. Maybe they don’t have any child care in a pandemic. You don’t know what’s going on, right?
Jennifer: Yeah.
Jen: You know, decide not to take it personally. I will say that when you send that first message, your job is not done until you’ve sent the follow-up. I think that’s really, really important advice.
My inbox is a mess, always. You know, direct messages [DMs] on Twitter or LinkedIn, there’s no kind of way to like Mark As Read, or file it into different folders. These things are just messy by nature. Not everyone is really skilled at managing their inbox. So, your job is not done until you’ve followed up. If you need to.
Jennifer: That is such great advice. You know, I did this kind of workshop at the beginning of the pandemic that was all about How to Stay Connected During Social Distancing. During that workshop I taught people that you have to assume that people are busy, or that they’re too swamped with things in their own life to hear you the first time.
That follow-up is not just a courtesy for them, but for yourself, because you do want to be heard. Right? Otherwise, you probably wouldn’t have reached out in the first place. Sending that follow-up is a good thing to do for yourself as well as the people who are around you.
And assuming that people might not have time, or that their schedules might change, is going to set you up for not being disappointed. Just expect something to come up. And then if it does, you can be flexible with it. This is kind of a low stakes thing for you. You’re reaching out, and it’s okay if they’re too busy on the other end. Most of the time, they’ll tell you if they have the capacity to do so.
Jen Polk, photo by Nadalie Bardowell
Jennifer: One thing that I want to be sure to ask about is can an informational interview help you get a job? Does that get me a job if I do those? What is the correlation between informational interviews and careers?
Jen: That’s a great question. So how are these two things connected? I already said don’t think of an informational interview as a way for you to ask for a job or pitch yourself to an employer. But it does happen.
The outcome of informational interviews are unknown at the outset. And I have heard the stories. These are true stories that sometimes happen to folks where they do an informational interview and all of a sudden the person that they’re interviewing says
“Hey, you wanna join the team?”
“There’s an open position I think you’d be great for.”
“Hold up, something is coming through. I’ll message you when that happens.”
This absolutely does happen. That can happen in your first informational interview, or your 150th. Purposefully, that’s a big number, I know. So, it definitely does happen.
I would say you can be open to that. But that is probably not gonna happen to you. Especially, I would say, if you’re switching sectors potentially.
Jennifer: Okay.
Jen: That doesn’t mean there’s no connection. Learning really is important. Learning is important for you so that you
Can make better decisions about what you want
Have more of the information about what this job title is all about
What is this job ad actually mean when it’s translated through an actual person who’s doing it
Is this employer actually toxic? Based on the job ad, you’re not sure, you know. The learning piece is really important for you to make good decisions.
The learning piece also helps you craft stronger application materials because you get a sense from communicating interacting with that person more about
What that employer cares about
What that field is actually really about
What kind of stories they find compelling
You can write better cover letters, you can write better resumes, and application materials. These are kind of indirect connections.
A lot of the time when folks are thinking surface level, they will think, “Well, my informational interviews did not lead to a job.”
Yes, they didn’t lead to a job directly. But then when you asked, what was the value of informational interviews?
“Oh, well I learned that there was a whole field I never heard about.”
“This new company that you know was doing exactly what I wanted.”
“There was this this job title that I thought was totally something different, but actually was exactly what I was looking for.”
Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So indirect, very important.
They are very self-affirming for a lot of people. They boost the confidence of people doing informational interviews. I’m not promising that, but that really is often an outcome, an unanticipated bonus. It is confidence boosting for a lot of people. It is affirming to have somebody give you some of their time, to give you advice. That is a gift, right? It’s a nice thing that they respect you. They take you seriously. They want to help you. That’s nice.
Am I making sense? Like it’s good. And that helps your job search.
Jennifer: Oh, yeah. I think that that confidence thing is something.
If you’re one of those people who’s nervous or anxious about it, and you know that not only doing this can help you
With your career
Make better decisions
Network
Meet more people
Boost your confidence by practicing more and reaching out to more people that you admire
I mean that, that’s great. That is some incentive to actually try an informational interview if you’ve maybe been on the fence. So, I love that.
Jen: Yeah, now you’ve got this new person kind of on your team.
Jennifer: I love that idea, having someone on your team was kind of true. The more I learn about someone, the more I want to root for them. The more I want to cheer them on. If I’m gonna sit there and talk with someone for half an hour in a way that’s helping them, I’m also feeling like I have a little bit of a stake in their outcome. Like I want them to do well.
If you’re feeling that anxiety, remember that that’s someone who’s trying to help you, who kind of wants to be on your team. You can let them by reaching out. I love that.
Jennifer: How do you find people to do informational interviews with? How can people get started? I know you said that you can reach out to a friend or a family member, but what about people you don’t know?
Jen: Yeah, all of the above. Really everywhere. Some examples are in-person conferences. These as someone put it to me on Twitter today, “organic conversations.” So, after the panel, in the hallway. Right, totally cool.
So from your professional life:
People that you’ve worked with in the past
Other professors in your department
Other grad students that you know have already graduated and gone off to work in industry
Anybody that you’ve interacted with professionally over the years is fair game
Social media.
LinkedIn is kind of an obvious one. It’s a great one. These people can be total strangers, but I think it’s really helpful in terms of actually making the connection, and by that I mean like actually having the conversation, and not just sending the message. It’s helpful if there is some sort of connection already there (i.e. you have a person in common, you went to the same undergraduate institution).
Twitter. People you follow, people that follow you back, are you communicating in the same thread? All of the above really matters.
You can also just find people randomly online. Somebody was
On a YouTube channel
Participated in a podcast
Wrote a blog post that you admire
I did that for one of the folks I did an informational interview with 10 years ago: a woman who wrote a blog post about AltAc career transitions. I looked her up. She was in Toronto. I’m in Toronto. She had an English PhD. I’m a history PhD. I was like well, there’s some connections there. So, I sent her an email. And not so far into the future we met in person.
Jennifer: I love that!
Jennifer: I have a question. You said something a while back zero, to your first interview, to like 150 interviews. How many info interviews have you done?
Jen: Oh, boy. I don’t know.
Jennifer: [Laughs.] It’s a big number.
Jen: Well, I probably haven’t done that many. And, not all of the conversations I’ve had that are informational interview-like were seen in that light at the time, if that makes sense.
Jennifer: Even though it was doing the actions of informational interviews, it wasn’t necessarily considered an informational interview at the time.
Jen: Yeah. Informational interview is a form of networking, but it’s a form of networking where you as the person doing the interviewing–doesn’t always happen this way in reality–but all you need to do is prepare a list of questions and ask.
In that way, there is less kind of back and forth versus ‘networking more proper,’ if I can make that distinction, which is really meant to be a real true back and forth where both parties are sharing.
I am not suggesting that in an informational interview situation you’re not being helpful, and there’s no back and forth. Just, if you’re feeling nervous about it, remember all you need to do is go in as a researcher with a list of questions. I say that to hopefully take the pressure off.
So why did I say 150?
Jennifer: Yeah.
Jen: There was a reason I picked that number. A client that I had last year, over the summer and fall, now it’s the summer again, so about a year ago. She did 150 informational interviews. She told me this subsequently. And that was a choice that she made. You know, there’s reasons why that suited her personality, why that suited her job search, we could talk more about that. The opportunities that she pursued came directly out of that and not out of her applying to jobs. So the jobs that she ended up getting, she took a couple of part-time contracts with startups and small organizations…
Jennifer: Wow.
Jen: Those came directly out of informational interviews. And never did she apply formally for a position.
Jennifer: That’s amazing.
Jen: Now, that is one example. There are many, many examples. But that is one true real life example.
Jennifer: Oh, that’s great. 150 interviews helped that particular person because it matched their personality to do a lot of them. And it helped them find the career path that they were interested in. So that’s very cool.
What if you’re like, “Oh my god, 150 is nowhere near what I’m capable of. I can do like five informational interviews?”
Jen: Yeah, I think five is a great number.
Let me talk about my process when I advise PhDs on the job search. And when I say PhDs I mean people that have a PhD, people that don’t have a PhD but sort of you know relate, grad students, all of the above.
The process that I would recommend is first to kind of get right in your mind about what is going on. So I call that Prep.
And then you go into Focus. And this Focus section is you want to focus on yourself. That’s basically self-reflection, right? What do you want? What do you need? What do you have already?
Then, the third step is Identify. Identify some possibilities. That’s when you do research. A big part of that research is probably going to be informational interviews. But that’s not the only type of research you’re doing.
If you have limited capacity for informational interviews, at least right now, you can really emphasize the other types of research. But you’re going to do it strategically. You’re going to get your mind right. You’re going to focus on yourself.
And then you’re gonna say, okay, based on what I’ve learned about myself, what are the types of jobs that I want to do some research on by reading
Job ads
Company websites
Blogs
Listening to podcasts
To learn more about whether these things would align with what I know about myself.
Jennifer: Right.
Jen: Then you’d be very selective, “Okay, so it seems like project management is a role that is really going to suit me. Or, instructional designer.” Let’s say, “Those are the two that I’m really thinking. I haven’t really talked to anybody yet about them.”
Then, “Okay, let me go and talk to five people. Maybe three for one, and two for the other. And see you know, if I’m on the right track.” And maybe you are. Maybe you’re not, right? Maybe you need to pivot a bit. Maybe you decide, “Well, it’s not instructional designer. It’s more educational developer I’m going for, which is slightly different.”
Maybe at that point you decide you want to do more informational interviews. But the first five were really helpful in narrowing and pivoting. Does that make sense?
Jennifer: That makes so much sense. I absolutely love that. It sounds like having that process, having that kind of approach really helps people who are going through this.
Jennifer: Can you tell me a little bit more about your program? I’m sure people who are listening want to hear about it because it might be right for them.
Jen: Yeah, thanks for asking. Let me finish the steps here. So yeah: Prep, Focus, Identify. Right? That’s where you really want to narrow down like, “Okay, this is what I’m going for.” So this person has decided on educational developer, right?
Then step four is Market. I use that term purposefully: Market to employers. That’s when you want to write your resume and worry about your LinkedIn profile, or not, depending on your job search.
Jennifer: I bet some people are really surprised right now. They’re like, “I thought I needed my resume first.”
Jen: No.
Jennifer: People, you really need this program because this is telling you that you might be putting your energy into the wrong places at the wrong time. Oh, I love that, Jen.
Jen: Yeah, exactly. Thank you for saying that. So, do those things last, folks.
Jennifer: Wow, yeah.
Jen: Don’t skip the earlier stuff. That’s what I found. That’s why I built it this way.
So what is my program? So I have a PhD Career Clarity program. This is a paid program. It’s 12 months access. That doesn’t mean that it takes 12 months, but you’ve got 12 months because you know everyone’s life is different. And job searches can take time depending on you.
It’s basically an online course, self-paced. You go at the pace you want. It’ll take you through all of those four steps from “I don’t know if I even I’m ready to job search or want to,” all the way to interviewing for positions.
But let me say, if you’re thinking about it, or you’re not even yet thinking about it but you’re curious, I do have a free training for PhDs.
Jennifer: If you’re even thinking that you know a program like that might be helpful for you, want to get that group coaching in then be sure to sign up because that free workshop is going to give you more information about it. And it’s going to tell you some of those myths that might be holding you back from really getting clarity on your career, what you want to do next.
This is your life, right? This is important. It’s a big decision to figure out what kind of path you want to go down. This is a great program that can help you get there. I can vouch for that because my fiancé needed this program to help and figure out his next steps. He’s been in it for months now, and found it really helpful.
Jennifer: What’s a really good informational interview question that I should add to that list?
Jen: Kind of taking a step back from your question: what to ask you can Google the stuff and get lots of different lists. There’s value in that. Take a quick scan of what people say.
But ultimately, you want to go through: what do you actually want to learn from this person? What do you want to learn from them right now? Really do that introspection to decide what is most important.
Why do I say that? I had a client a couple of years back. He came to me and had already done a bunch of informational interviews, probably a dozen or two of them. And it just wasn’t working.
I was surprised, but it turned out, and this was his insight, that he’d done informational interviews because that was a task that had been suggested to him as a thing that he needed to do. So he went out and did it, but he never actually really cared about the people and the career paths that he was learning about.
He didn’t care, right? So it was really just a road exercise for him. Aha, okay. Once he determined, “Well actually, I really am interested in this. And this person is really cool because…” That like additional energy and interest, then the informational interviews just were totally mind expanding.
What is a good question to ask in informational interviews? It really is going to depend, classic academic answer, on what you really want to know.
Sometimes folks, I think there’s a real skill in asking questions. You might not be as skilled at it yet as you can become to be.
One tip is that sometimes you might think, “Well, I’ll just ask this person what their salary is.” But you’re like, that’s kind of inappropriate, but I want to know what I can expect to make. Aha, well then that’s the question you want to ask.
Instead of asking the person how much money do you make? Or, how much money did you make when you first entered this field? Which is the first question a lot of folks think to ask, what do you actually want to know:
How much money could I expect to make?
What is a reasonable range for somebody with my background in experience pivoting into this role?
Jennifer: That is a great question. Making it about yourself really helps take that kind of pressure off someone to talk about their own salary.
Jen: Exactly.
Jennifer: They may open up about it anyway. They may be totally fine talking about financial things. But putting the onus on you, making it about yourself, seems so much nicer. I like that. I’d feel much more comfortable with that.
Jen: A similar piece of advice to that is sometimes you think, well let me ask this person about something specific to them. Or, specific to their team, or employer. When actually what you really want to know is the trends in that sector or field in general. Does that make sense?
Jennifer: It does.
Jen: Right. I mean maybe you do want to know about that company specifically, but typically you probably don’t.
So instead of: What are the parental leave provisions on your team?
What you really want to know is: What are the parental leave trends that you’re seeing in this industry in general?
Jen: Oh that is some next level thinking. My fiancé has been doing informational interviews and learning from all these people. He’s definitely getting some great insights. But thinking about the trends, thinking about how it’s affecting more than just the individual, is a bigger approach. Wow.
We’re all researchers, right? We’ve all done that in our work. But researching your field, researching what you want to do next, is not something that people are always thinking about putting energy into. But it can really pay off. I just love that informational interviews can really help people experience some of that excitement, be warned about some toxic workplaces, I mean get the information that they need to actually make decisions for themselves. So that’s my favorite thing about it.
Jennifer: Is there anything else you’d like to add about informational interviews before we wrap up?
Jen: Let me repeat something I said earlier. That this is a real sticking point for a lot of folks. That they get stuck. And even folks in my program.
In the program, it’s a self-paced online course, but I’ve got regular live small group meetings over Zoom. Sometimes folks come and I ask, have you done informational interviews yet? It’s like, “No, not yet. I’ve skipped ahead.” It’s like, “Thank you. Well let’s talk about that.” Right? Don’t skip this stage. There’s different approaches, different strategies for every specific person, of course. And we can talk about that.
I think: Just do it. You can talk about why and how, et cetera. But ultimately, just do some.
Jennifer: Yeah! And if you do it, you can build some confidence. You can do some networking. You can really get comfortable talking about yourself, and asking people questions. You can get better at asking questions. There sounds like so many benefits, it’s kind of like well you definitely should be doing this. But also you’re gonna benefit from it too.
And you can email me [email protected]. I’m happy to get your messages. And follow up if I ignore you.
Jennifer: That’s right, follow up! Be sure to follow up.
Well thank you so much for listening to this interview. Be sure to like this interview. And subscribe to The Social Academic so you don’t miss the next one. Jen, thank you so much for joining me!
Jen: Yeah, you’re welcome. It’s always fun to chat. I’ll be back in a year or two, right? No pressure!
Jennifer Polk, PhD, is a career coach and educator. She regularly facilitates professional development workshops and delivers presentations for students and postdocs. Her University Affairs blog was a three-time gold winner from the Canadian Online Publishing Awards. Jen’s essays have also appeared in Inside Higher Ed, the Chronicle of Higher Education, the Globe and Mail, Academic Matters, as well as in three books.
More recently, she was an expert panelist for the 2021 Canadian Council of Academies report, Degrees of Success, on the challenges PhDs face transitioning to employment. In addition, Jen currently serves on the board of directors for CAGS, the Canadian Association for Graduate Studies. She earned her PhD in history from the University of Toronto. Find Jen online at From PhD to Life.
It’s been ages since I updated my blog. I guess having two kids has prioritized my time just a bit.
The last post on this blog was back in 2019 when I wrote about our move from the United Kingdom to the United States.
And then the pandemic struck a year after we had moved.
One of these days I’ll get around to writing something about my move from being a freelance consultant (9 years!) to being a vice president for two different edtech companies and then leaving my last role in order to be a full-time parent to my two kids.
But this post is really more about our news from 2022…when we moved to the Netherlands.
3 countries in 3 years. Just a quick update. Nothing fancy or in-depth. Back to part-time freelancing for me whilst Gillian is full-time freelancing with her writing business.
We’re learning Dutch and making friends from around the world who have settled in the Randstad. With more than 1,500 miles (2400+ km) on the bakfiets (Dutch cargo bike), we are cycling daily and enjoying life.
Accountability and time management are valuable skills in graduate school
Toyin Alli, PhD of the University of Georgia helps students inside and out of the classroom. She loves teaching math, it’s her dream job. She’s also making greater impact with her business, The Academic Society LLC, which helps students succeed in grad school.
In this featured interview, Toyin talks about her book, #GradBoss: A Grad School Survival Guide. Inspired by graduate students in her Facebook community, Toyin wrote this handbook in 6 weeks during coworking sessions! The book is packed full of advice and stories about grad school.
We also talk about YouTube, and Toyin’s love for teaching.
Jennifer: Hi everyone. This is Jennifer van Alstyne. Welcome to The Social Academic.
Today, I’m talking with Dr. Toyin Alli, a senior lecturer at the University of Georgia. Toyin, I’m so excited to have you on The Social Academic, and to feature you. Would you mind introducing yourself?
Toyin: So I am Toyin Alli. I’m so excited to be here. Thank you for inviting me.
I am a senior lecturer at the University of Georgia. I’m a teaching faculty member, so I do a lot of teaching, meet with a lot of students.
My go-to is those introductory level math classes where I can show students who believe that they’re not good at math, that they can be great at math.
Jennifer: That would be me [raises hand laughing].
Toyin: And they can enjoy it. That’s my personal challenge I have every semester.
On top of being a senior lecturer, I also run my own business called The Academic Society, where I help graduate students with time management and productivity. I also have a consultancy where I help other academics with their businesses. And setting up systems so that they can have a semester approved business that runs while they’re super busy in the semester.
Jennifer: Oh, my gosh, that is so much stuff. It’s amazing that you’re making it all work. You’re a teacher. You’re helping graduate students actually navigate their time in grad school. And you’re helping other academics who are wanting to start businesses like yours.
You must be good at time management, otherwise you wouldn’t have time for it all. I think it’s great that you’re helping other people with that too.
Jennifer: I love how open you are in your bio on your website about how grad school kicked your butt. And how time management and productivity made such a difference for you. I’d love for you to talk more about that and maybe your book, #GradBoss.
Toyin: Graduate school is definitely an interesting experience and journey. A lot of people have negative thoughts associated with grad school.
Once I really got the hang of grad school, it actually became great. I ended up having a great experience in grad school, which a lot of people do not.
What I found was, it’s really like that underlying soft skill that makes grad school so different. It’s the time management and productivity skills that we aren’t taught grad school, but we’re expected to just do. Those time management and productivity skills, they’re underlying everything. Those are the things that help you actually have time to do your research while you’re
Teaching classes
Taking classes
Going to seminars
Presenting
All that stuff
What I found from graduate students–and even myself when I was a graduate student– it’s very overwhelming. And there’s a lot to do. It’s hard to figure out what to do first. When you’re struggling to figure out what to do first, it kind of just paralyzes you. You kind of do nothing, and that’s where the procrastination happens. That’s where the burnout happens. I really like to jump in and help students figure out what to do first, and how to manage all of that.
When I started graduate school, I thought I was pretty prepared [laughs], because I did undergraduate research. My mom has a PhD. She told me about grad school. But something about experiencing it was just completely different. I had to learn that my undergraduate study habits were just not going to suffice in grad school.
I learned that other students were actually spending time before class doing readings [laughs], and that’s not something I ever had to do in undergrad. It was learning how to make time for those things that I’m not used to putting in my schedule, figuring out what my priorities should be as a grad student. Once I figured that out, and once I figured out how to learn math–which is funny–that’s when I really got a handle on grad school.
In my 1st semester of grad school, I took a class called Topology. It was something that I had never even heard of in undergraduate school. That class was just so foreign to me. I didn’t do the best. I’m sure I would have passed the class, but my professor ended up giving me an Incomplete [grade].
Next semester, in the Spring, I had to meet with him every single week and prove theorems on the board from that class. Every single week. There were tears involved. But in that process, I learned, “Oh, this is how you learned math.” From then on, I knew exactly how much time I needed to spend in my classes. I knew what I needed to do to actually understand what was going on, how much time I needed to allot for my homework.
Once I figured that out, I feel like everything was just unlocked for me. While grad school was still a lot of work, I enjoyed the experience.
Jennifer: I think that it’s really interesting because I see a lot of people on social media especially, talking about how they wish they had parents who went to grad school and who’d experienced some of that. Or, maybe who were academics themselves, to be able to highlight some of that hidden curriculum once you get to grad school. It’s the things that most people just don’t know about grad school.
What I’m hearing from you is that even though your mom had a PhD, there were still a lot of things that you had to learn. That you had to teach yourself and you had to figure out how to do. And it sounds like that one-on-one attention from the professor who gave you that Incomplete provided you some of those resources to be able to replicate that in other areas of your grad school life. It’s a really interesting story. So thank you so much for sharing that with me.
Is that something you talk about in your book, #GradBoss?
Toyin: Oh, yeah. So I have a book called #GradBoss: A Grad School Survival Guide where I share my experiences in grad school: the things I learned, the failures that I went through in grad school. As well as the 10 things that you should know before going to grad school (and even after you started grad school).
Things to remind yourself about:
Time management
How to make friends
Imposter syndrome
Failure in grad school
I talk about all of that in the book. And I also share my stories as well as other grad student stories.
Jennifer: Oh, that’s great. I think that book would be so helpful for people. I wish that I had it when I was in grad school, because I felt like a lot of the areas you just talked about were things that I struggled with. Or, maybe I had more anxiety about that than I thought my friends did. Having a guide or some kind of handbook would have been so helpful for me. If you’re a grad student reading this, please get #GradBoss.
Now, when did you write that book? What inspired you to actually put words on paper?
Toyin: I have a YouTube channel called The Academic Society with Toyin Alli, and I have been sharing videos about time management and grad school stories, things like that.
I also had a community on Facebook for graduate students under the same name, where I help graduate students. Something I learned about grad students is they’re reading all the time.
Jennifer: Mmhmm [affirmative]. [Laughs.]
Toyin: I’m a mathematician. And I will say the reading was very minimal. It was mostly practicing problems, working things out. When I got to the research portion, then I would read papers. But math papers are so short, like 6-7 pages. They’re very short. Yeah, [laughs].
Jennifer: That’s short! Yeah.
Toyin: When talking to all these grad students, they’re telling me how much they’re reading. And I’m creating video content. I was like, “I should probably try to meet them where they are.” They’re already reading. Maybe I could put my knowledge into a book.
So I posted in my Facebook group, “Hey, I’m thinking about writing a book about surviving grad school. Does that sound like a good idea? Would you read it? And what would you want me to talk about?”
And they’re all like, “Oh my goodness. Yes, I would love a book. Here are the things I want you to talk about.” They listed about 10 things, and those became the 10 chapters in my book.
Jennifer: So that was really inspired by the people who you were already working with, who were already in your community, and who already needed your help. And they actually helped outline the topics and ideas that you wrote in the book.
I love that! I love that it was inspired by social media. That’s so cool.
Toyin: I know!
I realize I didn’t answer your question. When did I write it? I believe it was the summer of 2018. Or maybe it was the summer of 2019.
But something that I talk a lot about for grad students in grad school is you don’t want to do this alone. You don’t want to be isolated. And it really helps to have accountability. I’ve noticed that the difference between making a plan and actually following through is the accountability.
Jennifer: Mmhmm [affirmative].
Toyin: Whenever I set to do a task, I’m going to try to build in the accountability.
I’d never written a book before. I’m not a writer. I don’t call my myself a writer even though I guess I am because I wrote a book.
Jennifer: Yeah, you’re a writer!
Toyin: But I was like, the only way I’m gonna do this is if I have people along for the journey. I had this program that’s now called Focus, but at the time it was called Productivity Accelerator. I was like, “Anybody doing some writing over the summer? Anybody working on their thesis, dissertation writing, publishing papers? Do you wanna write with me?”
I actually got grad students involved. We would sit on Zoom for hours each day. We would talk about our goals. We would use the Pomodoro technique and write for about 45 minutes, chat, write for another 45 minutes.
I wrote the whole book in about 6 weeks in the summer, mostly with other graduate students.
Jennifer: Wow! In those coworking writing sessions. That is awesome. And Pomodoros that was something that works for you. And they worked for everyone else because everyone can follow this same kind of timeline doing these smaller, shorter tasks.
Wow, that’s so cool. And you got it done in only 6 months, that’s amazing!
Toyin: Six weeks!
Jennifer: What? Six weeks, is that what you said? [Laughs], I lengthened that. That’s incredible. So six weeks brought you #GradBoss, and that was inspired by graduate students who were in your community. And written with graduate students in that same kind of virtual space and while you’re talking about your goals and everything in six weeks. That is such a cool story. I’m glad I asked about that.
Jennifer: You talked a little bit about how social media is something you use for your community, but what does your online presence look like? Like what social media platforms are you on? Do you have a website? What is your online presence?
Toyin: Yes, I do have a website. I started with the website, as a home base for my brand. That’s where I would put my blog posts back when I was writing regular blog posts. I would create freebies or lead magnets–I would create some type of value for my audience in exchange for their email address. I would say my website and my email newsletter, those were what I built up first.
Then I remembered a dream that I had back when I started grad school. I started grad school in 2016. I loved YouTube. YouTube was everything for me. I watched all kinds of videos, learned about
How to do my hair
My makeup
What to wear
All of the things
When I first started grad school, I was like, “I really wanna be a YouTuber.” But I had this YouTube channel called YouTube University, where it would just be me trying to follow YouTube tutorials and do things. But then my mom shared my videos to everyone she knew, and I got so embarrassed. I was like, “No, I’m not doing this again.”
Jennifer: That’s so funny. She probably shared them cuz she was really proud of you. You were like, “No mom, what are you doing?” [Laughs].
Toyin: What’s funny is I have a YouTube channel now. I think the difference is my YouTube channel now is something that I believe in. I would push past being embarrassed because I know that what I’m telling people would actually be helpful for them. Being able to help someone overcomes that feeling of wanting to shrink and hide. I’m a very introverted and shy person, [laughs]. You wouldn’t guess that I have a YouTube channel.
After I started my website and newsletter, I was like let me do this YouTube thing. About 6 months later in 2017, I started my YouTube channel. I would post a YouTube video every single week. That is where I’m the most consistent.
Then, I occasionally post on Instagram.
Jennifer: I love that. It sounds like all of the places that you’ve brought yourself into that online space have been reactionary in the sense that you wanted a place to host your brand, to hold your blog posts. Then you wanted a YouTube channel because you wanted to explore that. Then you created a YouTube channel that was for a specific audience.
It seems very much like an organic process of finding new places that you wanted to spend time and create content for. And very audience driven as well, like you wanted to create things for specific people, is that right?
Toyin: Oh yeah. Definitely very audience driven.
At first as a mathematician, I assumed that I could only help graduate students who were like math or science, because that’s what I knew. I didn’t go to grad school for English, or humanities, social sciences. I didn’t really know about those programs. But when I was making my videos and blog posts for the STEM students, I had people in the humanities and social sciences saying, “Oh my gosh, this is so helpful. I wish I knew this.”
What people were wanting to learn from me was not discipline specific. It was about time management. It was about organization. It was about productivity. Those principles can be used anywhere. Now, I always encourage students to figure out what works for them and just leave everything else that doesn’t work. Some things I say may work best for mathematicians, but you can probably tweak it to work for a psychologist.
Yeah, I very much just followed what my audience wanted from me. It wasn’t just grad school in general, it was time management and productivity.
Then as I grew my business, people started asking, “Well, how are you doing this business thing and being a lecturer at the same time?” So here I am, business consultant for academics. It’s just naturally progressed as my audience grew.
Jennifer: Oh, I just love that. It sounds like maybe YouTube was your favorite social media platform. It’s something that you were watching a lot and then you created a channel because you enjoyed creating videos for, is that right?
Toyin: Very much so, yes.
Jennifer: What do you like most of about YouTube? You said you were getting makeup tutorials and all sorts of stuff you were learning. Was learning an important aspect of watching YouTube videos for you?
Toyin: Yeah, I think so. I think because I’m very much an introvert. But I’m also an Enneagram 5. If you know Enneagram 5’s, we’re investigators. We love information. We like to know all the information. Whenever I’m learning something, I am just feeling joy.
My friends make fun of me because I will sit and watch these video essays that people do on YouTube. I don’t know if you’ve seen them, but they’re like 2-8 hour videos on YouTube where they deep dive, have thesis statements about pop culture.
Jennifer: What?!
Toyin: Yes. I recently watched one on the Vampire Diaries. Like nothing even serious. But they deep dive into each of the characters, into the storylines, and different seasons. What made them work? I’m just fascinated by that.
Jennifer: Teenage me would’ve been mind-blown over this because I loved L.J. Smith books when I was in middle school and high school. This was before they were re-released, before the Vampire Diaries was a TV show. So middle school me would’ve been all over the 8 hour video discussion of that. That’s so great. I didn’t know there were such long videos on YouTube.
My interviews are like 40 minutes to an hour max. That seems really long. I worry, “Oh my gosh, no one’s gonna watch the entire thing.” But people do. And then they email me and they’re like “This was so helpful!”
Now I’m hearing that even longer videos are performing well. That people are creating this new type of essay, like video essay content. That’s so fascinating.
Toyin: I love it. I love it so much.
The long ones I do it takes me a few days to watch it all, but I always go back. It’s almost like getting a peek into someone else’s brain, watching YouTube videos and how they format the video, how they choose to share the information. I just find that fascinating. I find it somehow easy for me to just sit in front of a camera and share my thoughts. Cause it’s still being introverted–I’m in a room alone talking.
Jennifer: Yeah.
Toyin: But I don’t know. I feel like my video presence is nice. People respond well to me on video. I enjoy consuming that type of content.
Jennifer: Yeah, that’s really interesting. I talk with professors often about encouraging them to do a little video for their website. Or, a little video for social media. When I was watching 15 Minutes of Shame, the documentary about Monica Lewinsky on HBO Max, one of the professors who was interviewed said that even seeing someone’s facial expressions for a few seconds makes a difference for how people understand us as people. How they can connect with us emotionally because of those facial expressions. And how before that, people don’t seem like real people. So I’m always telling people, even if you can do a short video where you’re just saying hi, it can make a really big difference for people who are coming to meet you.
What it sounds like is that even though you’re an introverted person, kind of like me, that being on video ended up being something that was comfortable for you. Maybe not incredibly comfortable at the beginning if you were embarrassed with your mom sharing those videos. But eventually you found the comfort level that encouraged you to create more content for your audience, and create that channel. I love that you shared all that with me. Even your anxiety in the beginning, when you first created the YouTube University channel.
Online presence, a way to impact more than just my school
Jennifer: Now, you’re a lecturer. You’re helping grad students, new faculty members with your side business. Why is sharing your message online important to you? Why is it helpful for you?
Toyin: Yeah, I think it’s just a way to impact more than just my school.
Jennifer: Mmhmm [affirmative].
Toyin: When I’m teaching, in my school, we have a big research university. But I’m part of the small class size initiative. Most of my classes have 19 students or less. I’m reaching very few students at a time, which is great for teaching. But there’s a world of people who have no idea about what grad school is all about.
Being able to hear as many stories about grad school as possible has to be helpful. I’m happy to share my perspective as a woman, as a black woman, as a black woman who’s a mathematician. Like what was that experience like for me?
I think people find comfort in hearing just different perspectives on things, and not just the one perspective on things.
Jennifer: Absolutely. I think that seeing different perspectives, especially for graduate students who are just coming into their programs…Seeing someone who looks like you, who has the success and the confidence that you have to run these multiple businesses, and be teaching, and doing all the things, and having this book.
Seeing that it is possible makes a big difference for graduate students. Seeing someone who looks like you in that space, probably makes them feel much more comfortable. I know I would have felt more comfortable learning from someone like you. Absolutely.
Toyin: Thank you. Yeah. Even my students in the classroom, they appreciate me being there. I’ll get emails from students like, “You’re the 1st black professor I’ve had,” or, “You’re the 1st black math teacher I’ve ever had.”
And I was like, “Wow.” I think it is important that I’m there, like it exists. And if you wanna do it too, you can.
Jennifer: That’s why you still teach. Right? You have a successful business, but you want to still teach. Why is teaching important to you?
Toyin: Oh my gosh. I love it so much. It is literally my dream job. I feel so much joy and so much fulfillment from teaching. I can’t imagine doing anything else.
It’s very interesting that you say that because I do have a business that is profitable. I was speaking to my accountant and she was like, “So, when are you gonna quit your job? Because do you think if you taught less, you would make more with your business?” I was like, “Probably, but I love it.”
Part of the reason for my business consultancy is we’ve worked so hard to become academics, to get the PhD, to get the master’s degree. It took a lot of sacrifice to do that. On the other side of it, I want to actually enjoy the life that I work for. What I see a lot with academics is they get their job, and then it’s just like grad school 2.0. They’re just like working, working, working. Living just for academia, and not for yourself.
I feel very blessed to have chosen a career that fulfills me and makes me happy. It doesn’t really feel super draining. It doesn’t feel like, “Oh my gosh, I can’t wait to get away.” It’s something that I’m excited to do every single day.
But I also have this other life that’s outside of academia. That actually fuels me and makes me even more excited to go back to the classroom.
Jennifer: Ooh, I can hear your enthusiasm. I can sense it in your voice. And in your face, I mean, you look so happy talking about it. I can tell that you told your accountant, “No, I’m not quitting my job, I’m happy as a teacher.” I think that that’s amazing and your students get so much out of it. That’s excellent.
Now tell me more about The Academic Society. How can graduate students who are listening to this get involved? How can they get some help with their productivity and their time management?
Toyin: The first place I like to send people is the YouTube channel. You can go to The Academic Society with Toyin Alli. Just type in The Academic Society, you’ll find it. And I have playlists about time management, about my teaching blogs, and all of that.
Jennifer: Oh my gosh, incoming grad students, sign up for that. It’s going to be super helpful.
Toyin: Yes. And it’s basically, I’ve noticed, you know, there are some things that students don’t realize about academia and about grad school.
Jennifer: Mmhmm [affirmative].
Toyin: I wanna let them know what it is before they get started so they can prepare themselves. Signing for anything on my website is a way to get involved with the newsletter.
Then also joining my community on Facebook. If you’re on Facebook, I have a Facebook group called The Academic Society for grad students. Students are in there asking questions, chatting it up, meeting new people inside of that group every single day.
Jennifer: Oh, I love that. I will include the links so people can be sure to join your Facebook group, sign up for your mailing list, and check out those YouTube videos. I think it’s gonna be so helpful for graduate students. And that’s incoming graduate students, and if you’re in grad school and you know you can benefit from some of these skills, be sure to check out those videos. I know it will help you.
Understand why you do the things you do
Jennifer: Toyin, is there anything else you’d like to add before we wrap up?
Toyin: I would just like to say, it’s super important to understand why you’re doing the things you’re doing. Because that fuels you. It gives you the motivation.
I heard someone say, “I just wanna go to grad school so I can get those three letters, PhD.”
I was like, “Uh-oh, that’s not enough.” Grad school is a lot, and you’re gonna need something a little bit more than just wanting fancy letters behind your name. There’s a reason why you wanna do this.
I always encouraged students to get deeply connected to why they want to do this. Why they wanna go to grad school. Why they wanna be an academic. And to talk about it with others because it’s a great connection point. It can help motivate you and fuel you to help you keep going when it gets tough.
Jennifer: It sounds like it can help you make more informed decisions. No one’s telling you not to go to grad school or to do a different program or to, to get better with your goals. But talking to other people can encourage you in new ways that you might not have even thought of yet.
I know that talking with other people in grad school was massively helpful for me. I met a lot of people online who helped me not only choose what classes were gonna be most beneficial, but they helped me with actually talking to professors and standing up for myself when I needed it.
If I didn’t have community and grad school, I definitely would not have been as successful. And I wish that I had the productivity and time management skills that you were teaching, because I think that could’ve been really helpful to me. I am a procrastinator and I know it [laughs].
That kind of action based and accountability based thing that you were talking about grad students, if you’re listening, sign up for that mailing list and check out those videos, because it’s going to be so helpful for you. Be sure to get your copy of #GradBoss. Pick up your copy of that handbook to help you get through that first year of graduate school.
Toyin, I’m so glad you joined me for this interview. How can people get in touch with you afterwards? What’s your handle on social media?
Toyin: I am on Instagram @TheAcademicSociety_. That’s where all the grad school stuff is. But if you are already an academic and possibly thinking about having your own business, I talk about more personal stuff and more business-y stuff @DrToyinAlli.
Jennifer: Great! Thanks for sharing that with me Toyin, and have a great rest of your day. This has been an awesome interview.
Toyin Alli (@TheAcademicSociety_) is a McNair Scholar who received her PhD in Mathematics from the University of Alabama. She is now a full time Senior Lecturer at the University of Georgia. Toyin started The Academic Society LLC to help graduate students succeed in grad school through time management, productivity, and self-care. She reaches thousands of grad students through her digital programs, online social platforms, YouTube channel, and website.
September 6, 2022 by Dean Hoke – The percentage of students without a post-secondary degree in the United States has been a widespread concern for decades. Employment at a decent working wage did exist for those who did not have a degree however that world is quickly changing. This topic has been of interest to me for over 50 years because I am one of those who dropped out of college.
I started attending university in the Fall of 1968 and it took me until June 1975 to complete my bachelor’s degree. I attended two universities and dropped out twice before coming back and finishing. I thought in early 1969 when I left the university, I didn’t have the academic ability to get a degree and my university advisor certainly was not supportive and suggested I should go sign up for military service that day.
I did go back to another smaller university six months later and though I had pauses due to those challenges everyone has in life I finished with a bachelor’s degree six years later. Upon graduation, I started immediately after commencement at a small university in Kentucky as an admissions officer and completed my master’s in a relativity short amount of time while working.
With that in mind, I have always wondered how we get dropouts back to school and finish their degree. Employers, government, and adults all believe it’s needed, and it has financial benefits for all. Yet nearly 40 million people from the age of 18-64 started higher education and did not complete one degree. I am presenting my initial thoughts and I would ask for your thoughts on how to address this question.
US Labor Market
According to the Federal Reserve Bank of Saint Louis, the US Civilian Work Force from 25-34 as of June 2022 has the following educational attainment
The Harsh Facts on College Dropouts
American higher education overall has 39 million people with Some College, No Credential (SCNC) as of July 2020 according to the National Student Clearinghouse Research Center. The most recent study dated 2017 shows the following:
30% of first-year students drop out before their second year of college.
58.5% of students who started in community college after 6 years have not obtained any degree or certificate (1,071,720 students from students starting in 2011)
32.6% of students who started at a four-year institution after 6 years have not obtained any degree or certificate. (730,556 students starting in 2011)
More than two-thirds of college dropouts are low-income students, with family-adjusted gross income (AGI) under $50,000.
Full-time employment reduces graduation rates.Students who work a full-time job during the school year are half as likely to graduate with a bachelor’s degree, as compared with students who work 12 hours or less a week. Every additional hour of work beyond 12 hours a week reduces graduation rates. Working a full-time job takes too much time away from academics.
The reasons why are not surprising but still distressing.
Source: Hanson, Melanie. “College Dropout Rates” EducationData.org, June 17, 2022,
Economic Impact
According to the 2020 US Bureau of Labor Statistics, the average wage earned by a person by education level looks like this.
One statistic that stands out is the percentage of the income difference between a 4-year degree vs a person with a two-year degree person is $19,288 a 38.5% increase.
As the United States’ employment needs quickly change, industry and government have a pressing need for more qualified workers. In the publication HR Drive titled“Employers are hiring, but 80% say they can’t find skilled candidates”More than 82% of employers said they’re actively hiring, despite predictions of an economic downturn, according to a survey of 150 HR leaders by Challenger, Gray & Christmas, Inc. 80% of the respondents, however, reported having difficulty finding workers, with 70% identifying skills shortages as the reason.
It is further reported that 43% of Challenger’s respondents reported that, although they have enough applicants, those applicants do not have the needed skills. Another 43% said they do not receive enough applicants, with 27% noting that candidates who do apply are not qualified. “The labor market remains tight and employers are reporting skills shortages in almost every area, including in STEM, data analytics, human resources, finance, and operations.
During the next decade, the need for people with advanced credentials will continue to rise. Corporations have made it clear there is a need for more qualified workers whether it’s via a traditional degree such as a bachelor’s or micro-credentials/badges which verify customized skills. A report by McKinsey projected that more than 100 million workers will need to find a different occupation by 2030. In the United States, for instance, customer service and food service jobs could fall by 4.3 million, while transportation jobs could grow by nearly 800,000. Demand for workers in healthcare and STEM occupations may grow more than before the pandemic.
Organizations use different techniques for reimbursing student employees. The most common include:
Tuition assistance/reimbursement (63%)
In-house training seminars (61%)
Attendance at educational conferences (51%)
Continuing education courses (50%)
Coverage for licensing courses and exams (44%)
Personal development courses (35%)
Looking at tuition assistance the concept by employers is not new and many have had some sort of program in place for well over 10 years.
The Society for Human Resource Management survey reports tuition assistance programs are an attractive recruiting measure, and most employees are aware of the basic benefit. However, less than 5% percent of employees participate. Of those who participate in the tuition assistance program more than 4 in 10 who are using the benefit to attend graduate school.
Large corporations such as Starbucks, Target, Walmart, and others have all implemented go-back-to-school incentive programs using various higher institutions schools with an emphasis on online degree institutions.
Example One – Starbucks
Starbucks was one of the early adopters. In 2014, Starbucks and Arizona State University (ASU) introduced the Starbucks College Achievement Plan (SCAP), which provided Starbucks’ U.S. employees the opportunity to earn their first-time bachelor’s degree with the company paying for 100% of their tuition.
in 2021, Starbucks modified the tuition reimbursement benefit by paying all tuition and fees up front, as opposed to reimbursing employees for their out-of-pocket costs later.
More than 20,000 Starbucks employees are currently participating in SCAP.
The number of employees finishing their undergraduate degrees through SCAP will reach over 8,500, with Starbucks setting a goal of 25,000 graduates by 2025.
There are more than one hundred different degree programs offered through the SCAP program, and Starbucks has employees enrolled in all of them.
Almost 20% of people who apply to work for Starbucks say that SCAP is a major reason for their decision.
SCAP scholars are retained by Starbucks for a 50% longer period than non-participants, and they are promoted at nearly three times the rate of those employees who do not participate
Example Two – Walmart
In July 2021 Walmart announced it will pay for full college tuition and book costs at some schools for its US workers, the latest effort by the largest private employer in the country to sweeten its benefits as it seeks to attract and retain talent in a tight job market.
The program includes 10 academic partners ranging from the University of Arizona to Southern New Hampshire University. Participants must remain part-time or full-time employees at Walmart to be eligible. They have recently dropped a previous $ 1-a-day fee paid by Walmart and Sam’s Club workers who want to earn a degree and will begin to cover the costs of their books.
Example Three – Target
Target in August 2021 announced a fund to support educational courses for its employees. It is similar to the Walmart program. Available to 340,000 full-time and part-time workers.
Cover the full cost of select undergraduate degrees, certificates, and certifications for its 340,000 U.S.-based workers.
Pay up to $10,000 each year for master’s programs at those institutions.
Allow participants to attend one of 40 partner institutions.
Invest more than $200 million within the next four years in the program
However, one of the issues employees are challenged by is tuition remission vs tuition assistance. It is difficult and a deterrent to potential participants to upfront costs.
Researchers who have studied tuition benefits, including Jaime S. Fall, director of UpSkill America at the Aspen Institute, and Kevin Martin, chief research officer at the Institute for Corporate Productivity, believe that frontline workers might be more likely to participate in these programs if companies moved from “tuition reimbursement” to “tuition assistance” models, where employers pay their portion of education costs upfront. Many lower-income employees—or workers of any kind—can’t afford to float tuition costs for several months while they wait to be reimbursed.
Despite these new and innovative programs, we still have millions who are not going back to school. While 80% of employees are positive about these benefits only 40% have made any investigation and only 2% have taken advantage.
Student Barriers include
Restricted options by degree, college choice, net cost, upfront payment before receiving reimbursement
Lack of knowledge of grants and loans by employers, government, and schools.
Student personal issues (living life and family issues)
Childcare options and cost
Fear of failure,
School too far away
The older you get the less likely you will return to school
Paths to Explore by Higher Education, Corporate, and Government
Each sector is aware of the challenge and trying different approaches to get students dropouts and get a degree.
Higher Education
Private and state-supported regional universities are an asset underutilized
Further development and refinement of quality online degree programs to encourage re-enrollment
Developing stronger retention programs to reduce the percentage of college dropouts
Expansion of Teaching and Learning Centers for their communities
Evening and weekend on-campus programs
Academic credit for life experience
More student-friendly transfer of credits to a new school
Easier for students with outstanding bills to send an academic transcript
Corporate
More generous funding for employees to return to school. Going above the $5,200 a year tax deduction
The movement to paying tuition in advance by the employer rather than paying tuition in advance by the student
Increasing the number of majors a company will financially support
Opening the door for employees to have a selection of more universities including accredited private institutions
An example is the IBM apprentice program which aims to hire more than 400 trainees each year, from software development to data science to human resources. The current estimated cost to the company is $65 million since 2018.
Improvement in communicating and encouraging employees to return to school
Government
Increased priority in developing joint partnerships that incentives employment and encourage dropouts to return to school
Increase current state and federal student grants program
Establish no-interest loans to encourage students who have previously dropped out to return to complete their undergraduate degree
Let me expand on the role of partnerships between government, Corporate and higher education. The development of regional partnerships between government, industry, and higher education is not necessarily new. It has been used with tier one institutions such as Ohio State, the State of Ohio, and local government to entice Intel to establish a major tech center in Central Ohio.
Another recent bi-partisan proposal was introduced in August, by Rep. Jim Costa (D–Fresno) and co-sponsored by Rep. Bruce Westerman, an Arizona Republican. The bill is aimed toward four-year regional public universities in distressed areas that could receive federal grants of up to $50 million for economic and community development efforts under newly introduced bipartisan legislation.
In a press conference at Fresno State to unveil new legislation that he will put forward to Congress that would benefit up to 174 universities, Congressman Costa stated “Universities like Fresno State and many universities throughout California, but throughout the country, support community development. “They represent constituencies where we have distressed communities. They support the workforce, leading to faster employment growth, along with a higher per capita income.”
Robert Maxim, a senior research associate at Brookings, a think tank based in Washington, D.C. is an advocate of this type of partnership. “There are way more regional public universities in the U.S. than there are R-1s, our view is that they are really good anchor institutions to route federal investment through. They are a set of institutions that have been historically neglected and deserve a bit more attention and support from the federal government.”
Conclusion
I believe we need to prioritize on the group with the best chance of returning and obtaining a degree, the 25-34 age group with some college but no degree. This is 5.7 million of the overall 39 million who started college but did not finish. While we should make available any current or new programs that encourage people to return to school the 25-34-year-olds are the most likely to go back.
The United States should emphasize the wider use of partnership programs with government and industry teaming up with state regional higher education institutions and local small town and private colleges and universities would be a valuable asset to all parties. These schools are scattered in smaller cities across America. Both regional state institutions and private schools come from the applied teaching traditions Many are in small towns and rural areas in which employees who wish to return for a degree have few options. The question of cost certainly exists but I believe some form of government/industry/university partnership can effectively address the cost issues. They have space and teaching knowledge and the ability to customize local solutions.
One final thought and that is the question of will. While cost is a significant issue government, industry and schools must work in unison to get students to return and complete their education. We must remember these are second or in some cases third-chance students. They have failed in their attempts for various reasons. However, these students must overcome the fear of failure. We must find ways to support and encourage these students to take that leap of faith and believe they can graduate.
Postscript:
Graduation day 1975
I have been asked why did I go back? I worked in a factory and my parent’s deli for 6 months I felt I needed someone to test me and determine what I should do for the rest of my life. I went to the state employment bureau in my hometown to be skills tested to learn what I was best suited for. After the tests, I sat down with a lady who read the results. She told me with a smile that scared me I needed to go back to college and get a degree. Seeing I was somewhat shocked by her recommendation she stated the test revealed my hand/eye coordination was horrible and if I worked in a factory as my father did, I would seriously hurt myself. I asked her about joining the military and she commented if you went into the military, it better be an officer working behind the lines in military intelligence because I was unlikely to be much of a decent front-line soldier. As you can see, I graduated, and my proud parents were there for the event. I later in my life suspected the lady at the employment bureau was trying to give me a slap of reality to grow up and use my brain.
Dean Hoke is Co-Founder and Managing Partner Edu Alliance a higher education consulting firm located in Bloomington, Indiana and Abu Dhabi, United Arab Emirates. Dean received his Bachelor of Arts degree from Urbana University in Ohio, his Master of Science in Community Development from The University of Louisville, and a graduate of the Wharton School of Business Executive Management program. Since 1975 Dean has worked in the higher education and broadcasting industry, serving in senior leadership roles specializing in marketing, communications, partnerships, online learning and fund raising.
He currently serves as Chairperson Elect of the American Association of University Administrators , Franklin University and is Co-Host of the Podcast series Higher Ed Without Borders . Dean is actively engaged in consulting projects in international education, branding, business intelligence, and online learning leading projects in the United States, the Middle East, Africa, and Asia. Dean resides in Bloomington, Indiana